The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position towards NATO.
Yeah I got a sneaking suspicion that LMC’s gonna see a ton of options getting dropped and orders cancelled. Our government is not to be trusted. We’ll use that shit as leverage at some point.
hey guys, I think that trump guy might just be really awful for America.
Why is that a bad thing ?
I’m assuming because American arms dealers like Lockheed Martin are losing a ton of business and America is rapidly losing the soft power and influence its build over the past 80 years
Why is that a bad thing ?
because that’s the entire crux of NATO, the post war world, and most of the military stability that currently exists throughout the western world, and beyond.
Who knows what happens after this point.
You mean how NATO destroyed Asia, Africa and the Middle East and is making masses of refugee streams emigrate? Very stable indeed.
NATO is the worlds largest terror organisation by a long shot. You deny their crimes committed in broad daylight because you have not been a victim of them.
What is next, The Empire did nothing wrong?
Got to speed up the European 6th gen fighter development
That’s how we get shitty aircraft. Need to speed up developing homebrew avionics for the F35s.
The F35 is trash anyways
it’s trash, if you ignore literally everything it’s good at, which is basically everything it’s designed for.
Turns out cars aren’t very good at crossing the ocean. Who would’ve thunk a fighter jet not designed for dogfighting wouldn’t be designed to dogfight. Truly a baffling conundrum.
By all metrics available, the F35 is literally the most capable jet in existence, it’s technological capabilities are literally unmatched.
F35 is designed to be a multirole fighter-bomber, it’s a jack of all trades, but has some serious tradeoffs in stealth and maneuverability. And before you go off (rightfully) about how dogfighting is mostly irrelevant in the modern age, manuverability is also how you crank to avoid missiles at long range.
The F22 can take on multiple F35s at the same time and smoke 'em.
In those same tests when they let the F-35 engage at range it won most of the time. It’s literally the close in dogfight part that it doesn’t win at and that’s why the F-22 is supposed to do that for it. The F-35 without an F-22 mission profile is to sneak into radar range, trigger AIM 174s from the super hornets behind it to clear enemy air assets and then get into range for it’s air to ground payload; drop that and light the super cruise to go home. At no point is it envisioned willingly dogfighting.
What makes you form that opinion?
It is american?
When Finland chose their new 64 F-35s. I supported it. Not anymore. We should have chosen our west neighbour’s Saabs.
well you’ve got like, two options.
One of them is swiss, and uh, it’s not bad, the other is uh checks notes hm, well you’ve got the swiss at least.
They went to the fighter store and all the F-35s were turned upside down.
Very smart move.
Stuff like this might actually be what unravels the Trump administration. The military industrial complex is far more powerful than any of the people Orange Julius has surrounded himself with, and they will not like taking losses to appease his ego.
It might unravel America, which would have much longer lasting consequences.
If we assume that Portugal would have ordered the same number as Czechia (a fellow European country with a pretty close GDP, population, and military budget that already bought F-35s) and take the flyaway cost on wikipedia of $82.500,000 as the price Portugal would have paid per plane, that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
And that’s just the beginning.
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
Fucking with a defense contractor’s
Good point. Hadn’t really thought of it that way. What an enormous mess…
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
Honestly, I feel it’s more likely to display how much the defense industry is just another ordinary industry. They’ll whinge and wring their hands, maybe openly support the limpdick opposition if they’re feeling particularly pressured, but all that experience in making killing machines is just engineering and marketing. They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
The defense industry is more like the oil industry than a cyberpunk future. Influential, not independent.
Portugal would probably have bought more, since we have a large area of the Atlantic Ocean that needs to be patrolled not only by sea, but also by air.
You also gotta make sure nobody tries to steal the Azores for their beautiful nature.
Do they get more planes for their buck now?
Disclaimer in that I am not in any way an expert on military procurement: it depends on what they buy.
There are three European planes that can do similar roles: the Typhoon (Anglo-German-Italian), the Rafale (French), and the Gripen (Swedish). According to this RUSI article, it looks like the Typhoon is probably actually more expensive per plane. The Typhoon was also, unlike the other two and the F-35, designed to be a pure air superiority fighter, so it’s more of an F-22 competitor than an F-35 one. Probably not what Portugal is looking for. That RUSI article has the Rafale as being a bit more expensive than the F-35 and the Gripen being a bit cheaper than it. However, the source for the F-35’s number is the flyaway cost for the Americans, who did ordered it in huge numbers and also did most (not all, but most) of the development and I would assume get a better deal than others. Further, it’s in an article headlined “F-35’s price might rise, Lockheed warns”. So I’m just going to hedge my bets and say:
- If they buy the Typhoon, definitely no, but the Typhoon probably isn’t the right fit anyway
- If they buy the Rafale, somewhere around the same, and it’ll still be extremely capable
- If they buy the Gripen, yes, and it’ll still be very good but not quite individually capable as the other options
That’s all well and good, but you’re also missing a critical point.
The European Union is very likely to introduce a bill that will massively subsidize purchases of local (EU) military equipment. This will make all EU alternatives much, much more attractive than F-35s.
This is a great move by the EU - it drives a lot of military spending away from the US and into the local economies, while shoring up its own security as well as preventing being at the hands of a fickle fascist for maintenance and upgrades.
A last point to consider is that the rafale is cheaper to operate than the F-35
Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for.
Asking stupid question… Isn’t this kinda shit that got Kennedy killed? Fucking w the military industrial complex? Have those barons diversified enough to not care about this line of business or something? I thought this was kind of a backbone of our economy. So many jobs too.
Killing Donny wouldn’t change much, tho.
America has shown it wants Donald or a Donald substitute.Project 2025 is now Americas playbook.
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
The risk that has surfaced of “America has an off switch” - even just the potential risk of rumors of an off switch - means all those military assets are useless when America elects unhinged leaders that are willing to subvert democratic process in order to run their playbook.
And America has shown it is willing to do that. Even prefers to do thatEven if they don’t have an “off switch” they can just not update the software. Those jets require constant updates and without it the radars don’t work right and the stealth degrades.
State level actors are capable of providing those updates themselves… That update is the mythical off switch they talked about and it’s absolutely sensational bunk.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “upgrade it myself.” They need data to know how to upgrade it. That takes massive Sigint capabilities, etc. Other countries don’t have the capability.
Of course, with our intelligence allies withholding intelligence today and cooperating with each other, the playing field is much more level, so maybe.
The Intel here is primarily the specs and settings of enemy EW, radar, and weapons. The second they turn any of that on within detection range you have the intelligence on it. That’s why Turkey got dropped from the F-35 deal way back. They had Russian air defense systems and D.C. didn’t want them combining the two to give Russia a profile of the F-35 from their own systems.
Love to see it
As they should. I’ll tell you that as an American you shouldn’t trust the US government.
Why would anybody feel they can rely on American hardware anymore? Any country with any sense won’t be beholden to them as an ally now thanks to that idiotic mango.
Mmm… Pretty interesting article.
Dunno if you’ll find a more European fighter than the Gripen.
Uses a license produced engine from US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_RM12), which has caused endless problems in exports for SAAB, since the US blocks them frequently when they are about to win a contract.
I would go for Rafale or Eurofighter and I am saying this as a swede. We need to replace the engines ASAP. Perhaps a UK, German or French one. Would probably take years to develop thought and likely a significant overhaul will be necessary.
Well, an easier fix is to just keep using the engine design, and stop paying the license fees.
What is the US gonna do? Stop supporting NATO? Put tariffs on exports to the EU? Stop being an ally, and ally themselves with Russia?
