Just checked the part about self-hosting. While it’s probably possible to handle things with a less heavy approach, their only “easy to use” example right now is to have a full-blown kubernetes cluster at hand or run locally in the source directory. That’s a bit much.
In the README there’s also instructions for Docker Compose, although it’s quite the compose file, with SIXTEEN containers. Not something I’d want to self-host.
it seems to contains development containers and external services containers. So the compose file is more for local dev it seems
What i do find weird is the choice for Django for the backend. Python is incredibly slow, and django rest framework is even worse.
Honestly, k8s is super easy and very lightweight to run locally if you know the rights tools. There are a few good options but I prefer k3d. I can install Docker/k3d and also build a local cluster running in maybe 2 minutes. It’s excellent for local dev. Even good for production in some niche scenarios
I don’t like the approach of piling more things on top of even more things to achieve the same goal as the base, frankly speaking. A “local” kubernetes cluster serve no purpose other than incredible complexity for little to no gain over a mere docker-compose. And a small cluster would work equally well with docker swarm.
A service, even made of multiple parts, should always be described that way. It’s easy to move “up” the stack of complexity, if you so desire. Having “have a k8s cluster with helm” working as the base requirement sounds insane to me.
Honestly, a lot of the time I don’t understand why a lot of businesses use k8s.
At my company especially, we know almost exactly what our traffic will look like from 9am-5pm. We don’t really need flexible scaling, yet we still use it because the technology is hyped. Similar to cloud, we certainly don’t need to be spending as much as we do, but since everyone else is on or migrating to the cloud, we are as well.
The “problem” with k8s is not that it’s abstract-y (it’s not inherently any more abstract than docker), it’s that it’s very complex and enterprise-y.
The need for such a complex orchestration layer is not necessarily immediately obvious, until you’ve worked on a complex infra setup that wasn’t deployed with kubernetes. Believe me when you’ve seen the depths of hell that are hundreds of separately configured customer setups using thousands of lines of ansible playbooks, all using ad-hoc systems for creating containers/VMs, with even more ad-hoc and hacked together development and staging environments, suddenly k8s starts looking very appetizing. Instead of an abominable spaghetti of bash scripts, playbooks, and random documentation, one common (albeit complex) set of tools understood by every professional which manages your application deployment & configuration, redundancy, software upgrades, firewall configs, etc.
A small self-hosted production kubernetes cluster doesn’t have to be hard to operate or significantly more expensive than bare-metal; you can buy 3U of rack space, plop in 3 semi-large servers (think 128 GB plus a few TB of SSD RAID), install rancher and longhorn, and now you’ve got a prod cluster large enough for nearly every workload such that if you ever need to upgrade that means you have so many customers that hiring a k8s administrator will be a no-brainer.
Or you can buy minutes from AWS because CapEx is the absolute devil and instead you pay several times as much in OpEx to make it someone else’s problem. But if you’re doing that then you’re not comparing against “installing things the old-fashioned way”.
Thanks for the response!
I personally haven’t rolled a k8s or k3s cluster, so it’s always felt a bit abstract to me. I probably should though, to demystify it to myself in my work environment.
Complex is definitely what I have noticed when I see my devops team PR into the ingress directories.
I guess the abstract issue I see, that ties in to the meme i shared above, is that sometimes around deploys where we get blips of 503/4’s and we appear to be unable to track them down. Is it the load balancer? Ingress? Kong? The fact that there is so many layers make infra issues rough to debug
Kubernetes is not really meant primarily for scaling. Even kubernetes clusters require autoscaling groups on nodes to support it, for example, or horizontal pod autoscalers, but they are minor features.
The benefits are pooling computing resources and creating effectively a private cloud. Easy replication of applications in case of hardware failure. Single language to deploy applications, network controls, etc.
Yea I’m not a fan of helm either. In fact, I avoid charts when possible. But kustomize is great.
I feel the same way about docker compose. If it wasn’t already obvious, I’m biased in favor of k8s. I like and prefer that interface. But that’s just preference. If you like docker compose, great!
There’s one point where I do disagree however. There are scenarios where a local k8s cluster has a good and clear purpose. If your production environment runs on k8s, then it’s best to mirror that locally as much as possible. In fact, there are many apps that even require a k8s api to run. Plus, being able to destroy and rebuild your entire k8s cluster in 30s is wonderful for local testing.
Edit: typos
Surprised they didn’t go with cryptpad - aren’t they already French?
Cryptpad is French, but they are using OnlyOffice, which is Russian.
Fuck :( Didn’t know that… I got convinced by the company being supposedly Latvian.
It is Latvian. It’s also Russian. It’s also Singaporean. It just depends on who you ask and how much you want to look into it.
But yeah, that’s a large part of why I use Collabora instead of OnlyOffice, it’s just a lot less sketchy.
What was wrong with libre?
The web browser is the future, especially for a crappy document editor and spread sheet.
Then just use Word online.
Not FOSS and probably not privacy friendly
Pretty sure Libre only does local document collaboration, having it online is helpful for teams far from each other or who simply don’t have the infrastructure for their own central server of this kind.
Well this has been running in our Nextcloud and works pretty well collaboratively :) https://github.com/CollaboraOnline/online not sure how it scales, but definitely an alternative that can be built on
Thanks for this; I may use it to build out my NextCloud server. I’ve already used it to replace shared calendars and contacts.
If you’re using Nextcloud All In One then it’s easy to enable it in the AIO settings.
If you’re not, I suggest looking into it. It’s the new officially recommended way of installing and it’s been great.
Nextcloud has an export/import data function but at the time I did it I only had a few GB of data so not sure how well it scales.
Yes, that’s excellent… We need our own Google suite. Fingers crossed so that it may come eventually.
Calligra and LibreOffice already exist though. I am not against this in principle but couldn’t they have invested in an existing FOSS project?
While both of those are great software. Unless I’m not aware of something they aren’t cloud/network based office suites like Google docs and office 365.
It seems this is an alternative to office software where you can work simultaneously and share documents in the same cloud/network.
I don’t think there is an alternative to office 365 and Google docs at this point that is open source. So this seems like a great project and I’ll definitely be considering it for our company.
There is nextcloud and others you can self host at least.
What about Collabora Online? It integrates nicely into Nextcloud, but I am not sure about pricing for business use.
https://www.collaboraonline.com/collabora-online/
Guide for self hosting: https://collabora-online-for-nextcloud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/
Thanks I’ll definitely check that out. I’ve seen some posts about it working on Synology Nas devices so that’s very interesting.
If you ever diverge away from proprietary Synology solution, NextCloud has 100% integration with Collabora too.
LibreOffice online exists. It’s not mature, but they could have invest half their time in making it so.
Only Office is natively cloud based, with an optional offline/desktop version.
Both are open source, if the concern is project governance, create a fork and rebrand.
A lot of government programs don’t really make sense and are there just to put a name on a CV sadly.
Wait LibreOffice has a cloud?
We should actually use an opensource, decentralized and private alternative instead of relying on another centralized service
See Fileverse for example: https://fileverse.io/
I agree but having two major countries using this might be a good move for more efforts from nations. I know Canada still uses all M$FT platforms and recently moved to EXO.
Purpose built projects like this would be easy for public servants to adopt and adapt their workflow.
I wish we did with more open source and local software. My school in Canada has some agreement with Microsoft so we have to use everything from them.
The school mail used for all accounts is hosted by outlook
The databases are all azure
The 2fa app on our phone to boot the school computer has to be Microsoft (even gave me shit because I am root…)
Teams
We had a whole course for a year on how to use word.It’s a public school. Obviously with this most students will move to the USA for higher pay, we are literally subsidizing the USA education.
The school board here uses Google, and Microsoft… I emailed their board and the province’s privacy commissionaire asking why. I grew up with an agenda, and that shit worked better than using a website and email for JK/SK aged kids.
What do folks think of cryptpad?
Thinking ofmore like planning on switching from proton after CEO bullshitI’ll look into that one too, I didn’t know about it
Which bullshit are you talking about? I might have missed it and my search didn’t bring much on it
edit: I think i found it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40123727/17360792
Short version to save others a click: Proton’s CEO tweeted an endorsement of Trump’s FTC pick, going on to praise how apparently the Republicans are now the party for the “little guys” and crediting the ongoing antitrust proceedings to Trump’s first term.
Why distributed? Having your data tied to a blockchain seems unnecessarily complicated, and it essentially puts your data at risk if the bulk of the community moves to the next hot thing.
We really need to decouple storage from the apps themselves. Whether you use distributed storage, local storage, or something commercially backed like S3 should be a choice separate from the app you use to view and edit your data.
I self-host Collabora (online version of LibreOffice; OnlyOffice is another option), and my data lives on my NAS, but it could just as easily live on S3 or some distributed data store.
I self-host Collabora (online version of LibreOffice; OnlyOffice is another option), and my data lives on my NAS, but it could just as easily live on S3 or some distributed data store.
Oh this is interesting. Any pitfalls you could talk about before I go popping this up myself?
It’s pretty easy if you use NextCloud with the AIO image, but if you’re doing anything fancier than that, strap in because there aren’t many decent tutorials.
Even nextcloud-not-AIO offers a way to install the server of office suites through the settings of the admin account all in the web GUI. I’ve chosen onlyoffice but it could have been nextcloud docs or collabora (and soon maybe, this thing)
(Not op) Its distrubuted so you don’t lose your content if something happens to one location.
Just browsing the landing page, it looks like the blockchain part offers proof of ownership and strict access controls without having to use a centralized service, which is needed in some form if it’s distrubuted.
I imagine but haven’t seen that it might handle payments for having things be distrubtrd as well, which would have meant having to include credit cards otherwise which would complicate things like micro payments to any given person hosting your content.
Edit: also this is the kind of thing that should use an S3 compatible API so you don’t get locked in as you said.
Its distrubuted so you don’t lose your content if something happens to one location.
Right, but you’ll lose your content if enough people lose interest in the network. That’s absolutely a thing in the crypto world where things move fast. Relying on the network effect to secure your data sounds… sketchy.
which is needed in some form if it’s distrubuted
Sure, and the easiest way to do that is w/ public key cryptography, sign your encrypted stuff and you can always prove ownership. A blockchain gives you that, but it’s hardly necessary to have consensus around that.
include credit cards
It probably uses some cryptocurrency. Lots of cryptocurrencies work well for micropayments (e.g. LiteCoin, Monero, or even Bitcoin w/ the lightning network).
I just don’t see the need for a blockchain here. Bittorrent has been doing content-based addressing for ages, and it doesn’t need a blockchain, you just ask for the data at a given hash and you get it. Or you can use IPFS. If everything is properly encrypted, you’re good to go!
What the blockchain does offer is a way to pay for storage. So the more you pay, the more likely your data is to still be there after some time as people leave the network and nodes drop and whatnot. All in all though, it seems really risky to put anything important on it, and you might as well just pay for a storage provider from a legal entity that you can sue if things go poorly (and maybe two, so you’re not screwed if goes bankrupt or whatever).
I was looking at it more, and it does use IPFS for the data storage (files and the collaboration chats etc), as well as Arweave, which I’d never heard of until today.
Yeah agreed - anything not FOSS is just setting up another bad situation waiting to happen
It says in one of the first paragraphs, that its open-source
Really cool. I tried to sign up but you have to be part of an officially recognized organization in France and input their registration number as part of the process.
I definitely don’t want the government attached to my personal files, in any country.
Yeah I thought this was open to the general public, I didn’t realize that it was not
Great news!
This is probably the last hump for me before I can completely degoogle.
Really glad to see the EU adopt more open source software as a way to combat the centralized control some of the american software companies have over the space.
So FramaSoft is not a thing ?? It’s French
No America’s club
Nice. Where is the source, on github (I didn’t see it but I only skimmed)? Federated? Self-hostable?
Github: https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
Self-hostable, but it seems like an absolute behemoth of an application if their “non-production-use-only” docker-compose file is to be believed, and I couldn’t find any production-ready deployment instructions on a quick skim. No obvious signs of federation and I didn’t see anything on their roadmap, not sure it would make a lot of sense for this though.
Deployment instructions start with the prerequisite that you have a full kubernetes cluster with ingress laying around, so… yeah. It looks like it’ll be on the heavy side.
https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
Self-hostable, needs Minio (or any S3 compatible system).
From briefly looking over the toot, I think the German version is called openDesk (bad choice as there seems to be some interior design software with the same name) there is a community version you can self host in a docker container. They apparently also have distro packages for Debian and Ubuntu but they seem to have stopped development on those.
Here’s a link: https://opendesk.eu/en/
openDesk is a complete suite of open source software. I guess Docs could at some point become a part of it. But it‘s not the same thing.
What does this do over what the collabora tools in Nextcloud do?
Is there a German-hosted instance? The URL https://docs.numerique.gouv.fr/login/ is making me wanna barf and no way I’m clicking it to risk seeing more Fr*nch.
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