It appears to me that the current state of Lemmy is similar to other platforms when they were smaller and more insular, and that insularity is somewhat protecting it.
I browse Lemmy, and it feels a bit like other platforms did back in 2009, before they became overwhelmed and enshitified.
If I understand it correctly, Lemmy has a similar “landed gentry” moderation scheme, where the first to create a community control it. This was easily exploited on other platforms, particularly in regards to astroturfing, censorship, and controlling a narrative.
If/when Lemmy starts to experience its own “eternal September”, what protections are in place to ensure we will not be overwhelmed and exploited?
It depends which instance you are on. Some instances are full of mods that censor everything that doesn’t fit their ideology. Other instances are more relaxed with their moderation approaches. It definitely pays to shop around a bit before you settle on an instance that is a good fit for you.
On dbzero we have a governance community and instance users have the right to vote out mods/admins if they are unpopular. But most instances are run in a much more top-down BDFL (benevolent dictator for life) fashion.
On dbzero we have a governance community and instance users have the right to vote out mods/admins if they are unpopular
Most leftist thing I’ve ever seen.
Yeah democracy is so leftist
I don’t know how it’d work but I’d be interested in something to deal with spam/scams. That annoying “Fediverse chick” thing, sure i blocked her, as can other individuals. And I guess the account could be flagged to whatever instance the account is registered to? But if it became a frequent problem, with bot account spamming people, it would be handy to have a way a tracking what accounts are getting blocked by lots of people.
Even if I wouldn’t want to autoblock accounts just because they’re unpopular, I might want to stop or mark as ‘caution’ private messages from “problem” accounts.
On Reddit, before it went full goose step, you’d have the problem where the top mod of r/linux would be this weird open source zealot who would delete any thread that had any practicality in it. So actual discussion of using Linux would happen in r/linuxmasterrace, which was nominally a meme sub but it’s where the actual community landed. You could use Reddit’s vast namespace to steer around an individual top mod.
You couldn’t steer around Reddit’s admin though, they have root access to the servers, they can, have and increasingly do shut things down they don’t like. It’s double plus ungood.
Lemmy, and indeed the entire Fediverse, offers every user the Bender gambit. You can make your own instance with blackjack and hookers. There is no mechanism to shut it down everywhere. Instances are hosted by multiple people on multiple hardware platforms on multiple power grids in multiple countries under multiple jurisdictions.
The top mod of [email protected] is being a shithead? You could make [email protected], or you could start [email protected], or you could start your own instance and then YOU are in control of who gets to be a mod on at least one instance. No one person has the power to shut down everything everywhere; you start talking about severing undersea cables at that point.
Lemmy, and indeed the entire Fediverse, offers every user the Bender gambit. You can make your own instance …
It really is that easy. I wasn’t sure it would be, but I started up my own instance on a Saturday because I was procrastinating on some work.
I used the Docker method, but apparently Ansible is even easier.
Isn’t this still true of Reddit though? You could just make a new subreddit if you don’t like another.
How is it different?
Because at the end of the day, they’re all on Reddit. So when reddit says “you’ll get banned for upvoting content that promotes violence [against the oligarchs],” you can’t just make another subreddit because they’ll shut that one down too.
If the admin of lemmy.world says “you’ll get banned for upvoting content that promotes violence [against the oligarchs],” then you can say okay and make [email protected]. People on Lemmy.world can still access the new site, or even leave Lemmy.world entirely if they decide they’re not down with the admin. But they can still access all of the other federated communities they were subscribed to rather than having to quit Lemmy overall.
What happens if lemmy.world admin forces the hand of the mods of [email protected] community to ban such content and then defederate from the madeupinstance.net where the new luigi community is hosted? Isn’t that the same problem as reddit? Lemmy.world users would not be able to see the luigi community at that point right?
Federation doesn’t definitively solve power tripping. It just reduces its impact.
Huge instances like world do undermine that project, so it’s up to us lemmizens (lol) to try and stay independent and spread out.
You can easily create a new account on a different instance. The only thing you lose is your post/comment history, but many apps allow multiple accounts in case you still want access to that.
Lemmy world bans [email protected]
Quite a few people switched to other instances when that happened
I feel like there is a real possibility of a federation schism where a bunch of server admins get together and defederate with the rest of the servers. In that case you either need two accounts on both side of the schism or just be blind to whatever is happening over there.
Lol. We need to advertise “The Bender Gambit” more aggressively in our welcome materials. It really is part of what makes this place(s) great.
I’ll be sure to do that when I make my own instance, with blackjack and hookers.
And you know what?! Forget the instance .
I actually just found this on knowyourmeme:
I think the primary defense is the decentralized nature of the application…
Moderators/admins can block and remove content on the instace(s) they control, but this does not impact the content of any other instance.
Effective censorship of the entire ecosystem would require control of many instances and defederation from those that are not deemed appropriate.
There is not really a way for the operator of one instance to control the moderation decisions of the operator(s) of any other instance.
lemmy is part of a horizontally scaling network of instances (servers). if a popular community on an instance goes sideways… say because of a new terrible mod or rule change, the entire population of that community can up and move to a new community in another instance without having to create new accounts anywhere.
this has already happened a few times.
What you’re worried about is basically what federation was built to stop.
If you don’t like the moderation of a community or other aspects, you or anyone else can make a new one on the same or a different instance, if you want.
You can even make it “private” (not federate) to keep others from coming in and recreating the problem you just fled.
To be optimistic, I’d hope the federation would be able to guard against deeper centralization like a more extreme .world or .ml, a la meta or whoever. There’s always space for grassroots instances, and I’m pretty sure there will always be someone out there running something or with enough interest to learn.
I agree with everything you said.
I’m thinking/hoping that this new wave of Europeans going to European instances will help spread out the centralization of .world and .ml, now and it’ll hold into the future, but we’ll see.
Hearing that several people have started country specific instances also gives me hope in this. With country/geographicly specific, topic specific, and just general instances, I think/hope it will lead to a more balanced user base.
Not just Europeans. I was talking to my roommate about how I deleted my Reddit accounts and fully committed to switching over to Lemmy, and his main concern was which instances were hosted in America so he could avoid them.
That’s awesome to hear.
Hopefully, the newest reddit influx will be able to settle in without any/too many issues.
I just made another comment that elaborated my stance more too.
I didn’t realize there was a trend of European users. I haven’t really thought about it, but Lemmy could use some sort of translation layer to facilitate multi-but-not-bilingual community. There’s a lot of German, French, Spanish, and Portuguese speakers I’d probably love interacting with and would never know! For now I rely on bilingual non-English natives or the little French I remember and just lurk.
I don’t know how big the “wave” is but [email protected] has jumped to the 11th(?) most popular/active community in the last week or so. The activity level reminds me of more niche subreddits, where you’d see a couple posts every hour through the day. Quite an increase over what it was at.
I also recall seeing a chart of a German (?) instance that had linear growth and over the past week it went exponential. I doubt the exponential growth will last more than a couple weeks before going back to linear, but still cool to see.
Edit: Added link to the community.
11th(?)
It will still probably end up like email. There will be a working group, public or private, that defines minimum spam requirements. If you don’t comply, you’ll be defederated.
Except with email, the sender and receive have no choice. With Lemmy, both can pick an instance that isn’t relying on whitelist/blacklist rules.
I know people who self host email, so there is a choice.
How does one do this without hardware?
I’m kind of sidestepping the point, but I think the average user will always be able to depend on the community to some degree, at least hopefully. All it takes is one savvy and willing user to support a huge section of community, bless the admins. If I’m being pedantic, most admins don’t own the hardware anyway, but that’s not the point. It’s not even the software necessarily. If it isn’t Lemmy itself, the spirit of independent web won’t go away. People will be always running Tor, I2P, fedi, I’ll even include crypto. The community isn’t the platform, it’s us.
I apologize for the uncalled-for Ted Talk.
…. Acquire/rent hardware, or pay for cloud services?
“How does one cook without a stove”
Yeah no, I’m not paying to do what reddit charged nothing for
Then you should expect enshittified experiences if you aren’t willing to pay for them
Plenty of people are ok with ads and such, and that’s fine. People who don’t want that may need to pay for the infrastructure of having an alternative platform. It all comes down to what you value more, and there’s no inherently right or wrong answer.
Reddit may not have financially charged you but it came at a cost
You didn’t need to stand up a whole instance to create a community.
You’re not required to run your own instance on your own hardware; you’ve just got to find an existing instance with an admin team you’re comfortable with, create your community there and recruit moderators just like you would on Reddit.
Literally the only answer not trying to fleece me. Thank you.
Take your meds
Fleece you? You act like we over here in a shady alley forcing you to buy shit.
??? How are the other answers trying to fleece you?
? That’s a bizarre response.
No one here is trying to fleece you. People are suggesting ways to run your own instance as that’s the major difference between Reddit and Lemmy; you’re not obligated to use someone else’s hardware or be subject to their rules, you can setup your own systems and have a bit more freedom. Reddit doesn’t give you that option.
Your account is subject to the rules of the instance it was created on, as well as the rules of each community you’re interacting with. If you run afoul of the admins for your instance, you can be banned, losing access to that account completely.
If you were to run your own instance; no single admin could ban your entire account if you pissed them off. You can still be blocked from communities or entire instances if you don’t play nicely with others, but you won’t lose the account so you can still use it in other instances/communities.
For most people this isn’t really necessary; but lemmy also has a pretty large number of tech nerds that like to self-host our own services, so you’ll get quite a bit of ‘heres how you can do it yourself’ type responses.
Unlike reddit, you can just setup your own space on your own hardware completely under your own control, if you don’t like what’s available.
You rent hardware.
The fuck I do
I need to know a bit more what you are specifically asking to answer appropriately, but I’ll guess in the mean time.
I’m assuming you asking about starting an instance without hardware. My understanding is that many of the top Lemmy instances are hosted on server farms (companies) rather than self-hosted on their own hardware. Hosting with a company would be essentially renting their server to run your software (Lemmy). You would have control of all the software decisions (instance admin), but would not own the hardware.
I’m not particularly knowledgeable in the area, but the above is my understanding and hopefully that answers your question. If not, let me know and I’ll try again :)
Also, I believe the BuyfromEU community just posted in the last couple days a list of European companies that could be used to host Lemmy instances.
So I have to pay. No thanks.
Infrastructure costs
You appear to have asked a vague question and people responded on what they thought you meant with your question.
You seem to be interpreting that as people trying to take your money rather than seeing that what you are looking to understand and what people are answering do not line up.
Another user has already given you other information that looks like what you were looking for, so I won’t bother reiterating.
I just want to say that I hope in the future you’ll try not to assume people interacting with you are trying to take advantage of you and there may just be a disconnect in the conversation.
Regardless, best of luck with everything :)
None. Someone is going to say federation helps here, but the effect is the same as creating an alternative to a popular subreddit under another name.
Not when it’s about sitewide policies. (Like reddit banning “Luigi” etc)
None. Someone is going to say federation helps here, but the effect is the same as creating an alternative to a popular subreddit under another name.
Which mechanism in Lemmy allows one person in power to decide a single word is a reason to ban a person from every instance in the Fediverse? Since there isn’t one, that is a way that Lemmy is more insulated from institutional abuse.
I agree, but the server owner imposing unpopular rules is not one of the two problems the OP asks about. Those are:
- The first to create a community control it. This was easily exploited on other platforms, particularly in regards to astroturfing, censorship, and controlling a narrative.
- If/when Lemmy starts to experience its own “eternal September”, what protections are in place to ensure we will not be overwhelmed and exploited?
Decentralization with federated servers does not address those problems.
The first to create a community control it.
If the community becomes toxic, its easy to create an identically named community on another instance. A perfect example: when I joined lemmy I subscribed to the “news” community on lemmy.ml. When I saw how it was run, I unsubscribed and instead subscribed to “news” on lemmy.world.
censorship,
Modlog documents all actions including moderator censorship. Nothing like that exists at reddit. If there is censorship happening, its in full view of the users on lemmy.
and controlling a narrative.
Again Modlog, if a moderator is removing dissenting opinion.
If/when Lemmy starts to experience its own “eternal September”, what protections are in place to ensure we will not be overwhelmed and exploited?
Beehaw is an example of a Lemmy instance immune to “Eternal September”. They disabled their easy signups, and defederated from instances that allow easy signups. I don’t particularly agree with their extreme approach, but its what was important to them and it was effective. This is a powerful use of Lemmy and the Fediverse.
If people get fed up, they just create another community under the same name somewhere else. This happened with 196 recently.
So every lemmy instance is separate?
For instance, I’m on lemmy.world now, reading nba community. If those mods go nuclear and someone creates another nba community elsewhere, will I see those posts on lemmy.world?
edit: i get it now … it’s a different server with different community, but they can be “linked” and you can subscribe to communities from different servers from your own server and you can also comment on different servers too from your own little world
i have more questions though … how do all these decentralized servers find each other and share information between instances? is it blockchain based? or is there a central server somewhere orchestrating it all ?
the enshitification happens at a smaller location level.
look at some of the shunned/pariah instances. lots of people just end up blocking it or joining the instance to participate… what ever
imo it will continue to be a rollercoaster of ups and downs that only a core group of users will notice but there’s going to be drama
because drama is how humans behave
What federation protects from is the singular owner of the platform sweeping in and setting/enforcing new rules for some or all communities. This could still happen on one instance, but new instances can mitigate the effects. Single communities can still turn bad, but it will be up to the users to decide whether to stick around or move to other communities.
I think the difference here is there is not some weird, ephemeral person deciding. For example, at the bad place, it could have been a shitty admin, a good admin or actually spez deciding the rules for everyone.
Here we have instances that make up their own rules on who to federate with (who you see), and whether or not you’re banned (who sees you). Also, the admins of your instance can redo moderation order anyway they see fit. It really will be an instance controlled vibe.
The real thing to be worried about is that if certain instances get too big. They have the most users and can control who sees what across the fediverse. For example, if a super large instance doesn’t want any posts on any volatile or controversial topic to be seen (immigration, Nazi salutes, transgender, etc.), they could just have it not show up on their instance and the biggest part of the fediverse would never see it and have no way of knowing they didn’t see it.
Federation.
There’s a reason why [email protected] and [email protected] are not federated with eachother, yet lots of users are subscribed to both.
If I understand it correctly, Lemmy has a similar “landed gentry” moderation scheme, where the first to create a community control it. This was easily exploited on other platforms, particularly in regards to astroturfing, censorship, and controlling a narrative.
For lemmy, it’s again a federation thing. You just don’t see many multiple defederated examples due to the small user count.
It’s not the most optimal solution, but it’s still miles better than dealing with single instance or single community issues.
Yeah but what do you do when one instance becomes so big that it dwarfs the other instances, and inevitably pushes them out with its sheer amount of content?
If it starts being evil, the same thing that happened to Digg and is hopefully happening to Reddit should happen, but way faster because it’s a one or two-click process.
(Unless you need to switch your home instance, which AT protocol can accommodate but unfortunately not ActivityPub or Lemmy specifically as of yet)
On non-federated platforms, the quantity of content contributes to the cost a user experiences when trying to switch to a different platform.
On federated platforms there is zero cost to switching, and even more, it is not zero sum. I can follow both of I think both have value.
Non-federated platforms don’t allow such a choice, and there is this hidden cost of inertia built into it that the federation bypasses.
