Cocaine "is no worse than whiskey" and is only illegal because it comes from Latin America, said Colombian President Gustavo Petro, whose nation is the world's biggest cocaine producer and exporter.
Several things determine the danger of a drug. One of the most important is the “distance” from pleasure to lethal dose. In that regard alcohol is way less dangerous than kokain.
Another risk is how easy you build dependency, and again you can easily enjoy a shared bottle of wine for dinner, or a beer during a break, and even get drunk in the weekend every weekend for years, all without building a dependency, you really have to abuse alcohol to become an alcoholic.
So objectively by the standard measures, kokain is way more dangerous than alcohol. Even without accounting for the extra dangers from kokain being illegal, like the addition of adulterants that are very dangerous.
If you get drunk every weekend for years you are an alcoholic and you just don’t know it.
The % of alcohol drinkers who are problematic drinkers is extremely high (about 25% of alcohol drinkers in Canada to give an example), people just don’t understand what is problematic drinking. 10% of the US population over 12 y.o. has dealt with alcoholism in the last year.
If you get drunk every weekend for years you are an alcoholic and you just don’t know it.
Some people get drunk once a week and don’t drink otherwise.
10% of the US population over 12 y.o. has dealt with alcoholism in the last year.
I never claimed alcohol is without problems. I expect by dealt with, it includes family and friends coworkers and such. That it isn’t personal alcoholism.
I simply don’t believe that. But if they consider getting drunk once AUD, then that an absolutely useless piece of crap paper.
You sound like someone who is defending their own bad habit
That’s decidedly offensive, I drink on average the equivalent of 1 beer per day. I basically never get drunk, but it can happen, maybe a couple of times per year. I drink maybe 2 bottles of wine per month.
So there you go, but you sound like one who likes to make idiotic personal comments.
-Had times when you ended up drinking more, or longer, than you intended?
-More than once wanted to cut down or stop drinking, or tried to, but couldn’t?
-Spent a lot of time drinking, being sick from drinking, or getting over other aftereffects?
-Wanted a drink so badly you couldn’t think of anything else?
-Found that drinking—or being sick from drinking—often interfered with taking care of your home or family? Or caused job troubles? Or school problems?
-Continued to drink even though it was causing trouble with your family or friends?
-Given up or cut back on activities you found important, interesting, or pleasurable so you could drink?
-More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt (such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area, or unsafe sexual behavior)?
-Continued to drink even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious or adding to another health problem? Or after having had an alcohol-related memory blackout?
-Had to drink much more than you once did to get the effect you want? Or found that your usual number of drinks had much less effect than before?
-Found that when the effects of alcohol were wearing off, you had withdrawal symptoms, such as trouble sleeping, shakiness, restlessness, nausea, sweating, a racing heart, dysphoria (feeling uneasy or unhappy), malaise (general sense of being unwell), feeling low, or a seizure? Or sensed things that were not there?
-Any of these symptoms may be cause for concern. The more symptoms, the more urgent the need for change.
Thanks for the TLDR, I agree all of those are very bad, and strong indicators of alcoholism.
But I’m very surprised that as many as 10% 12+ year experience that within a year? (12% men 8% women)
But maybe that’s because I never had problems myself, when I was younger I hated if I could feel alcohol clouding my thoughts just the slightest. So I basically didn’t drink at all while in education. I probably still choose to be with people that don’t drink much, because I still absolutely prefer moderation.
I know your numbers are American, but I think it’s probably about the same here. Again I’m honestly very surprised that so many people have such serious problems?
If every time you drink you do it to the point of getting drunk then yeah, you’ve got a problem with alcohol… Even if it’s not frequent.
If you drive once every 6 months but when you do you go twice the speed limit because you just enjoy the thrill of speed then you’re a problematic driver.
It’s 15 drinks per week for men and 8 for women to be considered a heavy drinker. That’s 1 to 2 a day, or just all in the weekend. These are determined by the US CDC. Source
Here in The Netherlands the amount of glasses is higher to be considered a problematic drinker (21 for men and 14 for women) but it is recommended to drink less then 1 glass per day to avoid alcohol related diseases. Source
Because alcohol is so normalized people don’t see it as problematic as other substance abuse but if alcohol would have been invented recently it would have been listed as a class A drug. Alcohol is more toxic to the human body than cocain.
I have no strong opinion for/against legalizing cocaine, but your statements don’t seem to align with the literature I’ve read on the lethal dose of alcohol vs cocaine - which I’ve always seen list alcohol as worse.
For example the chart below which measures the dose required for an active dose vs a lethal dose as a ratio - alcohol is worse.
Due to its intense and immediate effects on the brain’s reward system, cocaine comes with a very high risk of addiction.
This is a very well established fact in what research shows about dependency. There is absolutely NO WAY cocaine is only slightly higher than alcohol in dependency potential.
It’s also one of the things that make smoking such a strong dependency.
Also both LSD and Psilocybin seem dead wrong from what I know. Both are advised to ONLY take when you are monitored by a sober person. And that’s not because of how “innocent” they are.
LSD and psilocybin are non-lethal and do not develop physical dependencies. Youd have to take and insane amount to die. You are advised to be watched if you are new to the drugs as they are HIGHLY mind altering. It’s not like alcohol or weed, your perception of things completely change. An experienced user is fine on a standard dose alone. But that’s not what LD-50 measures anyway, it deals with direct toxicity. Its not someone jumping through a window because they are tripping and now think they can fly.
OK but they are highly dangerous none the less. I know (2nd hand) of someone who became dependent using it only once!!
Despite warnings not to use it unmonitored, and only once per year.
Its not someone jumping through a window because they are tripping and now think they can fly.
I know (2nd hand) of someone who became dependent using it only once!!
???
You know someone who is addicted to shrooms/LSD?
I’ve only done shrooms, but it’s not really a thing where you can just “go on with your day.” I have done all of my trips solo as well - not something I would recommend to others, but it’s possible to prepare a safe environment with the kinds of things needed to distract from “bad trips.”
It’s very hard to imagine what being addicted to LSD/shrooms would look like - unless you’re microdosing, it’s a “trip” which takes a lot out of you. Iirc even medically the effects are lessened if you don’t wait long enough between doses. You don’t get euphoria, you get something a lot more complicated. It’s not really the kind of experience one gets “addicted” to in the same way - not chemically and I don’t think psychologically.
Everyone should check out Erowid and unlearn the DARE hysteria.
I’m sorry, but there are magnitudes of difference between scientific studies and secondhand anecdotes. We should base public policy on only one of these (hint: it’s not the anecdotes)
LSD is non-habit forming for three reasons. 1) you pretty much gain an immediate and temporary tolerance. 2) the trips are so intense, abusing it everyday probably hints to you having some mental disorder instead of some dependency. They can be exhausting. 3) it’s not physically addictive, your body will not form a dependency on it, in fact it’s processed out of the brain with minutes to hours of consumption even if its effects last for much longer.
The problem is, the chart’s too scientific / technical to properly convey real world data to common people for what we’re talking about; Not to mention look at the scale in that thing. About halfway through it goes from logarithmic back to non logarithmic.
What were realistically trying to gauge is based on common purchasable amounts, what’s the difference between pleasure and LD50.
You’re more likely to die from water toxicity than LD50 of beer.
You’re more likely to die from suffocation on your own vomit than alcohol poisoning from a large bottle of spirits.
A lot of places refuse to sell pure grain alcohol because it is dangerous.
The chart has nicotine way up there too but you can hardly get enough of that to cause any damage directly.
Cocaine’s safety is largely dependent upon delivery methods. Going up the nose is probably relatively safe in the short term.
Another problem with the safety behind cocaine is it getting cut with more dangerous drugs. Which arguably legalizing would help with.
I think the biggest problem is that alcohol is that it is such an effective depressant. People use it to cope instead of getting proper treatment, then go about their lives trying to operate heavy equipment and coexist with people that are functioning perfectly well.
I know one person that had a heart attack and burned out from coke, But I know lots of people that have died from alcohol and paired driving walking and even one guy that just fell off a couch smashed his head on a coffee table and died. Then again confirmation bias I know maybe a dozen people that do coke.
That’s… insane. If you’re drinking 3 alcoholic drinks per day you’re not considered an alcoholic?? That seems like an extremely warped view of alcohol vs every other drug.
It’s not insane, it’s based on health impact, and probably the fact that 3 standard drinks don’t create dependency.
1 standard drink is broken down in the body in about 1 hour.
This is according to Danish health authorities, 3 standard drinks for men and 2 for women per day on average is the max, it’s recommended to not exceed that.
But even at maller levels, the principles I stated in my first post remain the same.
That defines the daily drinker, but a person who only indulges occasionally, but always gets hammered on those occasions, has a serious problem with alcohol as well. That’s a person who can’t control it, and lack of control is a problem.
Yes I agree, you can get drunk some times without being an alcoholic, but if you get hammered drunk so you don’t know what you’re doing, then you obviously have a problem.
I never understood why some people find it funny, when they get so drunk they can’t remember anything the day after???
I work a lot of college events for my job, and recently had two girls in front of me, and one said to the other “Dude, I’m gonna get you so blackout drunk this weekend!”
I did a lot of drinking in college, too, but i never wanted to get blackout drunk, and I’m a guy. Who would take care of me, make sure i was safe? The others around me who are also drinking hard? It’s a thousand times more dangerous for a girl.
Several things determine the danger of a drug. One of the most important is the “distance” from pleasure to lethal dose. In that regard alcohol is way less dangerous than kokain.
Another risk is how easy you build dependency, and again you can easily enjoy a shared bottle of wine for dinner, or a beer during a break, and even get drunk in the weekend every weekend for years, all without building a dependency, you really have to abuse alcohol to become an alcoholic.
So objectively by the standard measures, kokain is way more dangerous than alcohol. Even without accounting for the extra dangers from kokain being illegal, like the addition of adulterants that are very dangerous.
If you get drunk every weekend for years you are an alcoholic and you just don’t know it.
The % of alcohol drinkers who are problematic drinkers is extremely high (about 25% of alcohol drinkers in Canada to give an example), people just don’t understand what is problematic drinking. 10% of the US population over 12 y.o. has dealt with alcoholism in the last year.
Some people get drunk once a week and don’t drink otherwise.
I never claimed alcohol is without problems. I expect by dealt with, it includes family and friends coworkers and such. That it isn’t personal alcoholism.
Nope, that’s personal alcoholism.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohol-topics/alcohol-facts-and-statistics/alcohol-use-disorder-aud-united-states-age-groups-and-demographic-characteristics
You can get drunk once a week and not drink otherwise, that’s still alcoholism, every time you drink you lose control of it.
You sound like someone who is defending their own bad habit and that doesn’t want to admit that it’s alcoholism.
I simply don’t believe that. But if they consider getting drunk once AUD, then that an absolutely useless piece of crap paper.
That’s decidedly offensive, I drink on average the equivalent of 1 beer per day. I basically never get drunk, but it can happen, maybe a couple of times per year. I drink maybe 2 bottles of wine per month.
So there you go, but you sound like one who likes to make idiotic personal comments.
Guess I’ll spoon feed you
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder
Thanks for the TLDR, I agree all of those are very bad, and strong indicators of alcoholism.
But I’m very surprised that as many as 10% 12+ year experience that within a year? (12% men 8% women)
But maybe that’s because I never had problems myself, when I was younger I hated if I could feel alcohol clouding my thoughts just the slightest. So I basically didn’t drink at all while in education. I probably still choose to be with people that don’t drink much, because I still absolutely prefer moderation.
I know your numbers are American, but I think it’s probably about the same here. Again I’m honestly very surprised that so many people have such serious problems?
Wow by this definition I’m pretty alcoholic because every time I drink, last time was 5 months ago, I got hella drunk.
I mean, it’s just about the buzz for me
If every time you drink you do it to the point of getting drunk then yeah, you’ve got a problem with alcohol… Even if it’s not frequent.
If you drive once every 6 months but when you do you go twice the speed limit because you just enjoy the thrill of speed then you’re a problematic driver.
It’s 15 drinks per week for men and 8 for women to be considered a heavy drinker. That’s 1 to 2 a day, or just all in the weekend. These are determined by the US CDC. Source
Here in The Netherlands the amount of glasses is higher to be considered a problematic drinker (21 for men and 14 for women) but it is recommended to drink less then 1 glass per day to avoid alcohol related diseases. Source
Because alcohol is so normalized people don’t see it as problematic as other substance abuse but if alcohol would have been invented recently it would have been listed as a class A drug. Alcohol is more toxic to the human body than cocain.
I have no strong opinion for/against legalizing cocaine, but your statements don’t seem to align with the literature I’ve read on the lethal dose of alcohol vs cocaine - which I’ve always seen list alcohol as worse.
For example the chart below which measures the dose required for an active dose vs a lethal dose as a ratio - alcohol is worse.
Source listed here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drug_danger_and_dependence.svg
That chart is simply wrong:
https://www.libertyhouseclinic.co.uk/blog/substance-abuse/cocaine-or-alcohol-whats-worse/
This is a very well established fact in what research shows about dependency. There is absolutely NO WAY cocaine is only slightly higher than alcohol in dependency potential.
It’s also one of the things that make smoking such a strong dependency.
Also both LSD and Psilocybin seem dead wrong from what I know. Both are advised to ONLY take when you are monitored by a sober person. And that’s not because of how “innocent” they are.
LSD and psilocybin are non-lethal and do not develop physical dependencies. Youd have to take and insane amount to die. You are advised to be watched if you are new to the drugs as they are HIGHLY mind altering. It’s not like alcohol or weed, your perception of things completely change. An experienced user is fine on a standard dose alone. But that’s not what LD-50 measures anyway, it deals with direct toxicity. Its not someone jumping through a window because they are tripping and now think they can fly.
OK but they are highly dangerous none the less. I know (2nd hand) of someone who became dependent using it only once!!
Despite warnings not to use it unmonitored, and only once per year.
OK I get the point. 😋
???
You know someone who is addicted to shrooms/LSD?
I’ve only done shrooms, but it’s not really a thing where you can just “go on with your day.” I have done all of my trips solo as well - not something I would recommend to others, but it’s possible to prepare a safe environment with the kinds of things needed to distract from “bad trips.”
It’s very hard to imagine what being addicted to LSD/shrooms would look like - unless you’re microdosing, it’s a “trip” which takes a lot out of you. Iirc even medically the effects are lessened if you don’t wait long enough between doses. You don’t get euphoria, you get something a lot more complicated. It’s not really the kind of experience one gets “addicted” to in the same way - not chemically and I don’t think psychologically.
Everyone should check out Erowid and unlearn the DARE hysteria.
IDK what that is.
I’m sorry, but there are magnitudes of difference between scientific studies and secondhand anecdotes. We should base public policy on only one of these (hint: it’s not the anecdotes)
True.
LSD is non-habit forming for three reasons. 1) you pretty much gain an immediate and temporary tolerance. 2) the trips are so intense, abusing it everyday probably hints to you having some mental disorder instead of some dependency. They can be exhausting. 3) it’s not physically addictive, your body will not form a dependency on it, in fact it’s processed out of the brain with minutes to hours of consumption even if its effects last for much longer.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4910402/
Thanks, the more you know. 👍
The problem is, the chart’s too scientific / technical to properly convey real world data to common people for what we’re talking about; Not to mention look at the scale in that thing. About halfway through it goes from logarithmic back to non logarithmic.
What were realistically trying to gauge is based on common purchasable amounts, what’s the difference between pleasure and LD50.
You’re more likely to die from water toxicity than LD50 of beer.
You’re more likely to die from suffocation on your own vomit than alcohol poisoning from a large bottle of spirits.
A lot of places refuse to sell pure grain alcohol because it is dangerous.
The chart has nicotine way up there too but you can hardly get enough of that to cause any damage directly.
Cocaine’s safety is largely dependent upon delivery methods. Going up the nose is probably relatively safe in the short term.
Another problem with the safety behind cocaine is it getting cut with more dangerous drugs. Which arguably legalizing would help with.
I think the biggest problem is that alcohol is that it is such an effective depressant. People use it to cope instead of getting proper treatment, then go about their lives trying to operate heavy equipment and coexist with people that are functioning perfectly well.
I know one person that had a heart attack and burned out from coke, But I know lots of people that have died from alcohol and paired driving walking and even one guy that just fell off a couch smashed his head on a coffee table and died. Then again confirmation bias I know maybe a dozen people that do coke.
Removed by mod
The guideline here is 3 standard drinks per day, more than that and you may be an alcoholic.
You can do the above within that limit.
PS:
I think you have a problem with your shift key, you may want to consider buying a new keyboard. it looks pretty stupid with the jumbled writing.
That’s… insane. If you’re drinking 3 alcoholic drinks per day you’re not considered an alcoholic?? That seems like an extremely warped view of alcohol vs every other drug.
Please note this is a maximum! And it’s STANDARD alcoholic drinks:
It’s not insane, it’s based on health impact, and probably the fact that 3 standard drinks don’t create dependency.
1 standard drink is broken down in the body in about 1 hour.
This is according to Danish health authorities, 3 standard drinks for men and 2 for women per day on average is the max, it’s recommended to not exceed that. But even at maller levels, the principles I stated in my first post remain the same.
That defines the daily drinker, but a person who only indulges occasionally, but always gets hammered on those occasions, has a serious problem with alcohol as well. That’s a person who can’t control it, and lack of control is a problem.
Yes I agree, you can get drunk some times without being an alcoholic, but if you get hammered drunk so you don’t know what you’re doing, then you obviously have a problem.
I never understood why some people find it funny, when they get so drunk they can’t remember anything the day after???
I work a lot of college events for my job, and recently had two girls in front of me, and one said to the other “Dude, I’m gonna get you so blackout drunk this weekend!”
I did a lot of drinking in college, too, but i never wanted to get blackout drunk, and I’m a guy. Who would take care of me, make sure i was safe? The others around me who are also drinking hard? It’s a thousand times more dangerous for a girl.