As the situation in regard to report immigrants escalated, and the army may be used against Americans, do you believe there’s a way back, or is this a one way street to civil war?
Locked for rule 6
I don’t know. People have found ICE facilities and are harassing them there and while they are out on operations. That is great but the Trump administration is likely going to keep over-escalating the response while continuing to ignore laws. He is a “results for my side at any cost” person.
This does not have the seeds of a civil war.
Look back to 1861. The US was split between slave and free states. Both regions had different economic models that were in conflict. The slavers of the south controlled most of the nation’s capital. The slaves were worth more than all the railroads and foundries of the north. They had oligarchic control of the southern states.
When Lincoln was elected, it was the first time that an outspoken abolitionist became president. It was clear, that the demographics of the US were changing in a way that would lose their power and status. So they started a war.
Those weren’t the uneducated racists that you find waving confederate flags today.
The US has seen presidential lawlessness before (notably Andrew “Trail of Tears” Jackson). It also has seen lawlessness by state politicians (eg Harry F. “Massive Resistance” Byrd or Governor Orval “Blood will run in the Streets” Faubus).
The only way I could see a civil war is, if Trump directly threatened the Middle Class and/or the Wealthy Elites.
No, it’s going towards a civil war, as it seems the pieces are in place, heavy polarization, federal government overstepping their control over states control. This is all similar to how the first civil war started, polarization between the north and south, Dredd Scott decision stating that slaves in the north can not be freed, basically leading the way to the fugitive slave act, which is when bounty hunters from the south were going north to pick up slaves, northern were of course going to protect them, then we had Buchanan just not give a shit and basically going out the government can not do anything about state seceding even though they cannot led the pieces that led to the civil war. Buchanan was also sympathetic to slave owners.
All of this can be similar to today, trump can be seen as Buchanan setting the pieces up for the civil war, ICE taking immigrants away, using scummy tactics like taking them from courts or their immigration appointments, taking people from their homes even in states that are sanctuaries basically overstepping states ground, basically the opposite of bunchanan as he just said the federal government can not do anything but trump is doing everything he can to take over the federal government. This is the groundwork for it and while people think the US army is powerful, just remember the 2nd amendment was created as the last check if the federal government goes tyrannical, likely we’ll start seeing the civil war slowly start with 2026 elections being disputed, since trump party may lose really hard due to tariffs.
Two of my state’s democratic politicians were shot this morning, one killed, in a targeted assassination. I think it’s already started.
What sfate?
Minnesota. I feel sick.
Yeah I found all the articles, America is over folks and the protest are about to get ugly.
Would be nice if they could taste a bit of destabilization they impose on so many other countries, for a change.
Civil war is when one governing body fights another governing body in one country.
So civil war could be between Republicans and Democrats or the Marines and the army.
What we have now is civilians protesting a oppressive tyrannical fascist dictator wannaby.
So no. No civil war.
All my life I have watched movies where the all American hero stands up to the baddie, the facist, the bully, the greedy. I seen so many celebs virtue signal to their political values and causes that help others. The whole gun thing, we keep them to protect our rights.
But when there is an actual threat the passive acceptance is astounding. It’s quite bizarre to see. My brain can’t reconcile the USA I have watched vrs the USA I am seeing.
Will it be civil war, the old logic says yes. What I am seeing tells me no.
I learned a long time ago that in the USA the packaging is always far greater than the content.
And it seems to apply to everything, be it political, to personal conversations (example: greeting someone with hey how are you, but actually getting an answer to that question is not interesting, just reply with “great, you?”). Or from people praising their city … but totally glossing over the very large populace of homeless living under bridges.
“We have the best medical care system in the world” … but that it’s only for the top 5% and the rest actually get to see/pay the insane bills is quickly ignored.
And in movies/television it is also very much present. So, yeah, I don’t expect much from the folks shouting about their amendments or hugging their guns under the pretense of fighting off a dictatorship…The US is number ONE…in bullshit.
If you’re a Trump-loving magat, then you only care about virtue signaling and performative bullshit when Hollywood celebrities, Democrats, and online socialists do it…and completely ignore that Trump-lovers and Trump himself love performative bullshit and solely prefer a different – crueler and more toxic – variety.
It’s an aesthetic land full of people who see nothing wrong with screwing over any number of others as long as it leads to fortune, fame, power, or the grand trifecta. Morals, values, and virtues have long since been thrown out as fictional concepts unworthy of any potentially damaging action to uphold or analysis over whether they were lost in any exchange.
yeah, only Americans are narcissistic pieces of shit. nobody else in the world does it, and if they do they learned it from Americans.
America is a vile cesspool of indecent human beings that are a mockery of what non-americans are really like.
am I doing this right?
/s
I’m not indicating that narcissism and lack of empathy are exclusively American things, but instead that it’s a pervasive and near dominant mentality in America.
“Greed is good” is practically our country’s mantra. The golden rule here is whoever has the gold makes the rules (quite literally).
The golden rule here is whoever has the gold makes the rules (quite literally).
That’s not an American thing. It’s a human thing.
it’s quite literally been the rule since wealth and power have been synonymous.
Gonna need A LOT more. This already happened in 2022 for BLM. An existential threat needs to exist for a majority of the population before people will be willing to fight. It’s California. Too comfortable.
Yes. But the part that non-violence allows is that we can set it up to fight on our terms rather than theirs.
They want gun battles. Charging into enemy formations. Units vs units. They want to make themselves heros of battle. But they will do it only if they convince themselves they will always win.
That’s not how the modem organized military can be defeated. They will be defeated by guerilla tactics. Assassinations. Sabotage. Economics. The first thing that needs to happen is for the population to witness just how much they support each other.
The DNC may be useless, but as long as they keep MAGA thinking the opposition is weak, they will massively underestimate their own vulnerability.
The focus on immigrants is insufficient. The problem is the circumvention of law, due process, civil rights. The problem is circumventing the law to do so much harm, whether it’s to dark skinned people, the general instillation of terror, fraud and corruption, national leadership holding themselves above the law, enforcement agencies in contempt of the law, harm to our economy, harm to our neighbors and friends who relied on us, harm to our future and our environment, harm effective running of government functions. There’s just too many reasons to be offended beyond mistreatment of our fellow humans and the common thread is violation of the law and constitution.
The word you’re searching for is fascism. You just described fascism perfectly.
I think that for a civil war, you need an armed force on the protesters’ side, which they don’t seem to have. All radicals who are willing to spill blood are on Trump’s side. I’m not an expert, of course, but if you needed one, you wouldn’t have asked here.
All radicals who are willing to spill blood are on Trump’s side.
I’m not so sure on this one.
I’d like to think I’m willing to use the tools at my fingertips to sling hot lead in defense of minorities and prevent a total takeover, however, I recognize that doing so myself is a death sentence.
Taking a stand just makes you a target in a very wide open field. You need more people to take a stand with you to be effective. How many people feel the same as I do? Willing to stand as a group, but not solo?
Organization is important. Organize or be sent to a
concentration camp“prison”. Organize or be arrested for protesting the regime. Organize or die.Organized resistance is much harder to take down. With enough people, you wouldn’t even need to fight. But you should absolutely be prepared to.
The problem you’ll run into is (1) most leftists/liberals don’t own guns, and (2) most leftists/liberals are relatively affluent and will not be directly effected by Trumps policies. There is not a culture of being armed and organized among them.
Every state has a national guard. I’m actually really surprised the California guard followed Trump’s illegal nationalisation when Newsom clearly stated he didn’t authorise it, as is his right.
Yes and CA is one of the most liberal states, if their national guard rolls over for illegal orders then we have no chance with red or purple states.
I mean, some of them knew it was coming and lost their phones, but I don’t find it too surprising. Are you really going to risk serious consequences because you got activated when you shouldn’t have been?
Report for duty and let your chain of command fight it out. It’s not up to the guard members to work out the legality of their deployment
Now, if they start telling you to perform violence on civilians, that’s when you can take a stand and refuse orders. And so far, that hasn’t happened
I think they’re doing well. I haven’t seen them raise a finger to the protesters, they just stand there in a line calmly. The protesters are great with them too, they just keep yelling “you should be over here with us”. And with any luck, the courts will give them back to the governor so they can go home before they have to make a hard choice
Newsome has the authority to have state police and the CBI to arrest guard members who don’t follow the order to stand down.
He won’t, and I don’t know if I believe the state police would side with a Democrat, but the possibility is there.
Of course, there are MANY things that politicians have had the authority to do to stop things since January, yet they haven’t.
National guard and California state guard are not the same guard
Welp, today i learned, but I was obviously talking about the california national guard
I’m wondering what would or will happen when the Newson, Sanders, AOC, etc start to make messages intended directly for members of the armed forces, saying “this gov is no longer legitimate as it has broken it’s oath to the Constitution. You shall not obey unconstitutional orders”… Particularly if and when some generals follow suit…
Dangerous, but not more so than this fascist government…
I got a Citizen alert that two Democratic lawmakers were shot by a guy posing as ICE this morning so that’s fun
Do you live near where that happened, or in another state? I had to uninstall Citizen because it felt like it was just pushing fear stories directly to my brain, and kept wanting me to pay them for more of that, and a private 911 service? No thanks
I’m not even in the same country anymore lmfao
But iirc you have to pay for Citizen if you want to change your location. Tbh I’ve been close to uninstalling it because the app has gone to shit. I also don’t feel like reading a torrent of slurs in the comments.
The guns exist out there and the protesters exist out there. You’d just need some mobilizing incident to spark them not to leave the guns they already own at home next time.
It seems an easier solved problem than you let on.
Idealism is the privilege of elites. Maslow’s pyramid puts the majority of people into survival mode or comfort, and the US has been boiling the frog towards expanding the bottom of the pyramid for a long time. By the time people noticed that an open revolt (even so much as a work strike) would destroy their lives, it was too late. There are so few charismatic, moral and idealistic elites that the government could take care of them as soon as they threatened to become leaders of a real opposition. I don’t believe there would be a civil war, and I don’t believe there is a way back. The US will become a neofedual country, with a lucky few who have the means to move elsewhere. The best case scenario is for the rest of the world to isolate from the US, both economically and militarily.
I hope you’re practicing rolling on your belly and wagging your tail for fascists.
I’m helping people resettle to Europe. We currently host a recent college grad until they finalize their job and housing arrangements, and I don’t think they’ll be the last one.
Economically isolated US is unsustainable which will lead to collapse of the civil society. That’s why Trump wanted so hard to expand into Greenland and make Canada 51st State. Critical resources are missing in the USA to make it totally autonomous.
The US has more natural resources than just about any country on the planet could possibly have. If we can’t achieve autonomy as you’ve defined it then that kind of autonomy is a fictional concept that is out of reach for any modern nation.
Simple example: water. The USA has a shortage of fresh water and that’s why Trump is arguing the border between the USA and Canada is artificial and he wants to nullify old treaties in order to be able to grab the water from the Great Lakes unilaterally. The point is not about if other countries achieve autonomy, it’s about isolationism which requires autonomy to work and Trump wanting to make the USA isolated like in the good ol’ times when they could ignore the world.
then that kind of autonomy is a fictional concept that is out of reach for any modern nation.
True autonomy and isolation IS impossible for modern countries. There isn’t a single country that has access to every single resource needed for modern society, some things will always have to be imported.
A 1700s era society, however, is totally within the realm of possibility. Not much use for neodynium or lithium in the 18th century.
Yes, agreed. I wasn’t sure if we were talking about old fashioned autonomy as you referenced or in the context of the modern world. I don’t think a 1st world nation can be autonomous unless we advance to they point where we can mine most of the metals and minerals we need in space. And even then they might have issues with things like water.
I think we are still trying peaceful protests and hoping upcoming elections will change things. There is little appetite to escalate to violence yet.
It is inevitable that ice and ice barbie will encounter violent opposition when they raid a wrong address sometime soon. But it will be localized to that location.
Most of the radical groups of self armed wackos are working for ice now and reveling in their racism.
Which upcoming elections would that be? The ones after the guy currently in power who already tried to overthrow the government once and who can’t legally be reelected peacefully steps out?
Sure, wait for that to happen! What could go wrong with giving him years to prepare for exactly that?
There are elections every 6 months or so. All that has to flip are 2 or 3 seats and the entire congress flips.
What a useless, whiny attitude to have.
Eh? Do you somehow not know the definition of “whining”?
House of Reps are in 2026, and there are all sorts of state and local things so I assume they are meaning all of that.
If shit starts flipping blue everywhere, the R’s will either back off and play defense or escalate and have a lot more opposition. Hopefully more opposition?
Breaks community rule #6 about as flagrantly as is possible.
Ye love yer rules, do ye?
I want Lemmy to succeed, do ye not?
Lemmy can succeed while breaking arbitrary server rules, and if you don’t think this discussion has merit then you only want Lemmy to succeed in your narrow view of what “success” is, I guess.
This discussion breaks community rules, not server rules. The breakage is so flagrant that I don’t know why you’re bothering to argue. Just say you don’t want rules.
Ouch.
