I think progressives never thought about this because we banked on immigration and demographic change allowing us to win culturally and electorally but the issue is immigrants tend to be overwhelmingly male, that is how Trump won actually he won over a lot of Hispanic,Black,Asian and indigenous men who feel humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.
So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?
Reframe spending as stimulating the economy.
Create jobs through a green new deal that allows for upeard mobility for the motivated. Small business grants.
Create tax incentives for, endorse and give loam grants to businesses that provide workers with a share of a company. Whether co-op type thing or convoluted stock share program.
Young men want to matter, and they want to see the results of their effort.
Maybe like, one day you are gonna need the social safety net, even if you’re a very strong cis het guy.
One you’re gonna be old. One day you’re gonna be fired without notice when your car breaks down. One day your girlfriend might have a surprise pregnancy you can’t deal with.
Just brainstorming but I would start with saying, sure this doesn’t benefit you right now, cause you got the luck of the draw, but one day we will all need help
The reality of this all is rather complex but I think the greatest issue is fundamentally the empathy gap. Men’s issues are not recognized as issues, they’re just dismissed out of hand. I’m talking about the easy things like the sentencing and education gaps.
We need to start the discourse that these are very real problems that are worth addressing.
Another problem I personally run into is how it’s acceptable to discriminate against men, “kill all men” is acceptable but “kill all race” isn’t. Neither should be and we don’t recognize it as a problem, instead defaulting to arguments that are considered horrendous in another context.
Every time I have heard someone say “kill all men” I have immediately dismissed everything else they are saying because their logic is just as rotten as other racists/sexists
How did you dismiss all the leftists in one fell swoop?
If you’re spouting off “kill all men” nonsense you’re not a leftist you’re just a propaganda recycler
So 98% of Lemmy then
Thanks for confirming
If 98% of Lemmy wants to kill all men, that’s a pretty shit state of affairs.
Wow you restated your point and pretended it’s what I said. Very clever, you get 5 points, nobody’s ever done that before
If they wanted to address the education gap, wouldn’t they? Why would they want to when trades provide more money, no lost income for 4-5 years, or a crippling debt? Women are at a disadvantage there. I mean, I definitely don’t want to minimize overlooked hardships, but…
You’re paying with your body, the work can be very dangerous, and it takes a while to ramp up to decent pay. On top of that the pay isn’t always going to be better than a degree (iirc research has concluded that lifetime earnings for trades are behind degrees), ignoring countries with sensible tertiary education options.
Trades are not equivalent. And education is still a significant indicator of political alignment.
Honestly, this is a great example of the empathy gap.
What research? There are lots of folks with crippling debts. I know tons of people who will never be rid of their’s. As an engineer, I have never known job security. Who wamts to worry about losing their job every day? But I notice plenty of guys making a lot more than me since trades have a serious shortage of workers. Electricians around here charge whatever they want because there is not enough of them. Hospitals around here are bought up by one entity, so nurses can’t quit and make more money elsewhere. Teachers are quitting in droves such that it’s become a national crisis. But then there are plumbers making 6 figures.
This comment reminds me of a 4chan post, where the poster talks about understanding the difference between anecdotes and statistics, and goes on to say that anyone who responds to a statistic with an anecdote they think disproves it isn’t very intelligent.
You don’t want to be dumber than a 4channer, do you?
deleted by creator
How is that post wrong ?
How is anything I have said wrong.
I had a feeling this post is race bait. Apparently nobody actually read the body anyways and are responding to the title.
I don’t know. How do you teach empathy?
You got to beat it into people
/s, right? … right?
No, I don’t actually believe that beating people would make them more empathetic. sigh
Keep using sarcasm and satire. People need to recognize it when it’s obvious. Your reply was too on point to be anything else.
Thank you. I thought I was pretty on point when I wrote it. I really can’t stand the /s tag
This is proof that the current progressive agenda causes the same kind of brain rot MAGA does.
Bro doesn’t understand sarcasm
Check the other replies. He was sarcastic.
Yes, Poe’s Law is a bitch.
That doesn’t really change my position since I’ve seen many unironically and seriously advocate for being the aggressors. And like I said elsewhere, current progressive agenda doesn’t make a lot of sense because its whole identity is being the opposite of MAGA with a whiff of the ideals that once were core to it.
Sell it to women first and let them broadcast that they wont date any regressives.
Im assuming the regressives are mostly young cishet men
You don’t like cishet men much, do you?
Without having stats to back it up, it seems perfectly logical to me. Cishet men are the people conservative views benefit the most, and they’re the people folks like Andrew Tate specifically target. If I had to make a blind guess, I’d have said it’s cishet men, too.
No I agree with who is problematic. My comment was in reference to the solution being both forced on to women and under the assumption that courtship (sex) is the only way to reach those men.
I’m not an apologist, but when people are, from birth mind you, molded and made to be a certain way how are they supposed to behave? When they do reach an age where they have some beginnings of autonomy and critical thinking skills what happens? Phase 2 begins in the form of rightwing bullshittery. Couple all that with no sense of identity or value and you’ve got a recipe for destruction. Very few men can break free from all that. They’re, we’re, victims and villains.
it is not the only way, but sex sells and that’s also what the nazis do: on one hand they have indoctrinated women cosplay the lucky trad wife and on the other hand they imply men can just keep women like pets if they’re rich or alternatively at some point get a girl pregnant, guilt trip her into not aborting, then basically ruin her carreer and force them into a marriage they can’t ever get out of. that’s what fascists present to boys on youtube, tiktok and other media to win them over. they also have other talking points, but this is one propaganda vector.
I said regressives, most of which I’d wager are cishet men.
That doesn’t count cishet men outside of the regressive group. I hope, otherwise I’d be in trouble with myself
the issue with that is with less women dating period since less women want to settle. Would that work ?
There just isn’t a gaurentee or even a good enough chance that being a progressive or supporting progressive politics will get you a girlfriend or wife so would this kind of incentive system work ?
If you want the carrot and stick to work you have to give the carrot.
Telling women to just date random progressive guys for the cause even ignoring the fact it’s not ery ethical. I just don’t think you could convince enough women to do it for it to work
they don’t even have to date them. dating them and publicly showing the dates off (like in tiktok videos etc) helps and counters misogynists like the Tates or ppl claiming girls only date rich guys etc, but just hanging with boys and making clear they are leftist and like being around leftist boys will sway lots of boys. talking politics also helps.
i remember in my teens there were multiple girls doing this and it helped a lot. there was this punk girl and she would hang with like four boys and play them punk music, make them tea and hand out mixtapes and flyers for protests. another was a girl scout and met boy scouts on scout camps and they were following her around like creeps, but she invited groups of them to activities after the camp and got them to go to peace protests and help at community events. if a cute girl asks a boy to help her hand out flyers for a good cause at the town fair most can’t resist. and many girls have no idea how cute they are. they see stupid ads with supermodels and compare themselves with them, but there’s a very wide range of what boys like and they’re very likely in it, for most boys, even if they think they’re ugly.
hah that’s true, good point
Women don’t want effeminate men.
first of all, progressive men don’t imply them being effeminate.
secondly, you should be aware that “women” refers to a group of about 4 billion people. that means, if what you say is false for only 1% you’re wronging 40 million people. (but what you wrote is probably false for a much higher percentage. just like men, women can like different and multiple types at the same time and their preference can even change over time)
First of all, I disagree. Be mad about it if you want. Have a good cry. Then embrace it. Effemininity doesn’t have to be a bad thing. If that’s you, then be you. Of any time in history, now is the chance for you to celebrate whoever you are. Make a flag or something.
Secondly, do you know the difference between a million and a billion? It’s about a billion. My statement was clearly a generalization that would leave room for outliers. Also your estimate assumes that female babies would be included in the “woman” category. Hopefully that’s just a whoopsie daisy and we haven’t moved to a place where kids can identify as women.
speak for yourself lol
🤮
I don’t follow the media and the debate where you live, but over here left leaning politicians and media tends to frame it as: women, minorites etc have a problem. Men are the problem.
You’re basically pushing any undecided man over to the right.
liberal politicians and liberal MSM frame it that way, because they have nothing else to offer but toxic culture wars.
Liberal politicians do it because it’s been pushed by the left. It’s how they keep leftists voting more centrally. They take left wing ideas, then water them down enough to appeal for centrist voters. Centrists find common sense ideas appealing, while those on the left get a dog whistle.
I lean quite to the left and have rarely, if ever, heard many boogie-man talking points in this comment thread that people are obsessed over. And in terms of “centrists” equating patriarchy with men, for me it’s an intelligence/education issue, combined with refusal to have real life human contact with women, and, of course, choosing to blame literally the oppressed for all the harm that patriarchy causes them or their fellow men
combined with refusal to have real life human contact with women,
It’s quite possible it’s the other way around on that one. I’ve certainly had periods of my life where I had to branch out pretty far in my social circle to meet women because the things I enjoyed doing are either solo activities or of little interest to women (at least around here). Some of that has gotten better in the last decade or so as nerdy shit has become more socially acceptable and ive built up a more diverse social network for myself but it was a rocky start and if I didn’t get lucky with the people I had around me it could have turned out much worse.
So we should lie?
Men are the problem. The patriarchy, the racism, the discrimination? Men.
And if you are too braindead to understand this, you’re too far gone anyway.
You can’t have a post like this and then wonder “Why do so many men go to the right?”
Maybe men are sick of being painted with a broad brush. We all have our own thoughts, beliefs and feelings.
“the group that lived through obscene levels of violence and abuse throughout dozens of centuries is incorrectly (that part is true) labeling all members of said group as abusers, let me join the group advocating for more abuse” - how the hell does one justify this unhinged statement is beyond me. I would like to clarify, I completely disagree with the comment you replied to, I think it’s deeply incorrect and unfair, in addition to ignorant, but that’s really not grounds forresorting to fascism and treating women as animals. Because if that justification of a minor uneducated subgroup being ignorant was honest, the extreme on the right are soo much more evil.
Let me clarify: I am not advocating to join the right. I am furnishing an explanation why SOME men join the right. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s very sickening to be painted with such a broad brush. Some of us are moralistic and considerate and it’s annoying to just be treated as a monolithic entity. “You are a man, therefore you are evil” reeks of original sin. I prefer to be judged by my own deeds instead of the deeds of those I share a gender with.
Troll grade: C-.
Does Trump pay you by the hour or per post?
I’m not payed, I just don’t see a reality where we can improve the world and not mention the hundreds of years of oppression by men at the same time, which, as you already said, will drive away the republicans. So you really gotta start thinking „should we ignore the obvious problem why woman are to this day fighting for human rights so we can find a compromise with Nazis?” and my answer is obviously no.
You should be paid because you’re basically campaigning for the republicans.You don’t drive away any core republican voter, they would never vote D. You drive away the ones who voted democrat last election.
You’re conflating a lot of things here
You’re making an excellent point here. I’ll bring it up at the next Council of Men that we should stop oppressing women. Good thing we figured that out - top notch work!
Men are the problem. The patriarchy, the racism, the discrimination? Men.
Ultra rich men are the problem. We’re losing a class war.
I have more respect for open misandry than you might expect, but if your emotions are preventing you from crafting worthwhile politics, remove yourself from the situation.
The calm, reasonable people are talking, and histrionic performance like this is a step away from panicking.
Your trauma response may be valid, but that does not mean it is productive.
Yes, I am telling you to calm the fuck down.
… And shoot your buck!
Sell a more radical version
One thing that would probably help a lot is more progressive rolemodels who actually go out proselyzetizing, i.e. a more direct progressive equivalent to the likes of Andrew Tate. Though IDK how to actually make that kind of thing big, the fascist tech bros who rule silicon valley will surely suppress it even if it was gaining some momentum.
Male stereotypes have to be culturally broken first. Men are being taught that showing any emotions other than anger and hate is effeminate. They’re being taught that empathy is weakness, that education is stupidity, that freedom is slavery.
Everything that makes men human is being stripped away, leaving a husk of burning hate awaiting marching orders. They need to reconnect to humanity.
Who is “teaching” them this?
Frankly, I was going to say almost the opposite. Conservatives are appealing to young men by decrying the “woke” process of breaking down those stereotypes. It’s a reaction to those “traditional” masculine traits being challenged by a more enlightened society.
The key is not breaking down those gender norms, but rechanneling that masculine energy and “gender pride” into something healthy and beneficial. We need to reframe the conversation, because when you attack, people instinctively defend. Instead, we should model the new masculinity, one where being tough means being confident enough to stand out or be yourself. Where being a bro means being a friend, not a douchebag. Real men have the strength to admit their faults and ask for help. Real power is punching up, not down, and real bravery is accepting people for who they are.
Contrast someone like Joe Rogan with Pedro Pascal. Which one is a “Real Man™”? Which one should we celebrate and focus on? Boys need role models, because we don’t know how to handle our hormones at an age when everything is confusing. If you tell them their instincts are wrong, they will retreat to a safe space where someone else will tell them that society is wrong and they should be as gross and misogynistic as they can be.
Real men are creative. Real men are kind. Real men are curious. Real men are sincere. Real men admit mistakes and accept consequences. Real men lift others up. Real men are able to ask for help. Real men are comfortable with their sexuality, and are not afraid of exploring their preferences.
All children are born selfish and frightened. We have to learn to be better through empathy. Without positive role models, we cannot learn to overcome those selfish impulses, and we cannot stand up to the bullies that will try to sell the red pill.
Because no matter what we do, there will always be conservative dipshits talking about how oppressed they are because they can’t insult people by calling them “girly” or “gay” or “retarded” anymore. There will always be angry gym rats who think big biceps and a fast car will fix their insecurities. There will always be bullies, and we should always stand up to them.
Also, every boy should watch Ted Lasso. Seriously, there has never been a better breakdown of male stereotypes than that show.
40 something male that has struggled to overcome toxic masculinity. I mean I was literally slapped silly by my parents and grandparents for crying when I was 5 and told “boys dont cry”. I mean I’ve cried 3 times in my life before coming to terms with needing to change. Eventalking to my wife it’s taken years for her to accept that Im allowed to feel more emotions than anger and laughter.
Im a foster parent now and it’s been a lot of work to internalize my stuff but damn im supportive if the boys we have want to feel their feelings. 3 year old wanted a rainbow shirt and I got it for him but his dickehad machismo father called him a faggot. Oh boy I made sure he wore his favorite shirt for every visit.
I am going to be honest, I think women need to be a a part of this. We are used to being right in regards to gender conflict because usually we are but one thing I agree with men on is that every woman says they want men to share their feelings more but many women lose respect for a man they see as weak.
Bell Hooks talks a lot about this so you can go read her.
I do not find that to be the case at all in my circles, it’s usually the guys giving shit to other guys for expressing emotion and the emotionally expressive people (including women) riffing them for back for being assholes. There’s certainly a song and dance to doing this effectively.
I don’t really think it should be a gendered expectation but rather an everyone expectation. If someone is being vulnerable with you that wouldn’t otherwise, don’t be an asshole. If someone needs to be called out for exhibiting rude behaviour to someone else, do so in the way that works for your circumstances.
Help them to break down. Encourage them to be soft and show them that that softness is strength. So many of these young men are like this because they feel alone. We need to bring them together in positive ways.
humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.
So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?
Hmmm
do you have an actual answer to the question ?
Also even if you disagree with that, that is how they feel and when it comes to votes weather or not how they feel is justified or not doesn’t matter
Stop humiliating young “men”
This entire exercise is inherently the reason why it doesn’t work BTW.
It has that feel of: how do you do fellow alpha males vibe.
It will take a generation to unwind it. And frankly judging comments here it won’t succeed. “Liberal” base for the most part doesn’t seem them as anything beyond a useful idiot they need voting their way, so they get their agenda filled.
If you are trying to make a deal, offer something “young men” can get in return. Can’t even muster up anything to offer lol
These politics are divisive and that’s on purpose. The current framework is unworkable. You are not fixing identity politics with more stupid identity politics.
This is a class war IMHO and nobody is acting like it.
education, because of centuries of mysogyny, now that women are getting alot of funding and help in thier college careers, and beyond. and men are practically ditching it halfway because they dont see themselves even with thier degrees getting a job in it also a little sexisms plays into it, this makes them extremely bitter and turn to right wing echo chambers, because it gives them validation. an asian ytubers did this, got extremely bitter because his psyche degree had no job , so now hes a trumper, and blames educaiton is useless to thier followers.
also socially women when interviewing are better at getting certain jobs than men, like in biology related fields.
Reclaim patriotism. Republicans love to wrap themselves in the flag, progressives need to do the same thing. It’s just a piece of the whole, but seeing pics of the LA protests with Mexican flags flying - that doesn’t help bring American voters to a cause.
Seeing a lot of flags in the No Kings protests was very satisfying. We have to take genuine patriotism back from MAGA faketriots.
Reclaim patriotism.
Good luck doing that while doing everything possible to flood the country with immigrants, especially illegal ones, who hate your country. The left can’t reclaim patriotism because they hate America.
IMO it’s about saving men from the patriarchy. I was recently on an interview of Judith Butler and I really appreciated its take that the movement needs to show empathy and compassion.
