I have often heard ultra-lefts describe Marxists who oppose settler-colonialism and uphold AES as being “Third Worldists”.

Looking at what people like Jason Unruhe have to say about the topic, Third Worldism does not seem entirely baseless (e.g. the proletariat in the imperial core more often being labor aristocrats).

So, what are our thoughts on Third Worldism?

  • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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    2 days ago

    Third worldism, as i understand it, the position that the working class in the imperial core is inherently reactionary and thus an enemy, is a completely natural position to take for a global south person. Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it. This is not to say that there are no good comrades in the West, but simply that the vast majority are not.

    Honestly it’s a good way to lure out the chauvinism of western marxists.

    Domenico Losurdo has written extensively on this on “Western Marxism”.

    • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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      2 days ago

      Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it.

      This is certainly part of it, but there are at least three other reasons western marxists hold some reservations:

      1. Inside the imperial core, it’s often framed as essentially a defeatist position. If a leftist from the U.S. accepts the idea that pretty much everyone around them is inherently reactionary, what are they supposed to do? You can’t decide at the start that there’s no way to win.
      2. While the material conditions of a poor person in the imperial core are better than poor people in the imperial periphery, the imperial machine rarely ties its exploitation directly to that benefit. A key part of modern imperialism (especially in the U.S.) is denying that you’re an empire at all. When that’s combined with obscene inequality in the core, you have the basics for building class consciousness even if on paper your imperial working class is better off than working people in the rest of the world.
      3. It occasionally veers into determinist/essentialist arguments, which have all sorts of problems.
      • Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        These arguments are all framed in the western individualist mindset. Just because there is no hope of seeing success in your lifetime is not a reason to help the process forward. Communism will come regardless of what any westerner does. The tides of history don’t depend on any one person but that doesn’t absolve people choosing to do their duty being part of the tide.

    • Makan@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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      2 days ago

      From what I’ve heard though, Perry Anderson’s work on Western Marxism is a good read and I have it on my list.

          • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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            2 days ago

            The book i mentioned by Losurdo is literally a reply to Perry Anderson, and you are here recommending me his work! 😂 This is as if after recommending you to read Lenin, you replied me with saying that i should read Kautsky ffs.

            • Makan@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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              2 days ago

              I was not, I think. I was just saying that I heard good things about Perry Anderson’s work.

              But I see that you weren’t referring to Perry Anderson’s work, but Domenico Losurdo’s here.

              • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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                2 days ago

                Read the things before recommending them, you’re here throwing trotstkyist anti-AES writers as recommendations.

                • Makan@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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                  2 days ago

                  I am not and I read everything, even Hinterland, which is anti-AES to a degree, but that’s not the point of the book, and it’s observations cannot be denied and are well-argued and researched.

      • grabonex@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        Wait, from the perspective of a Third Worldist, isn’t Perry Anderson’s Western Marxism precisely the problem? That’s at least what I gathered, without having read Losurdo specifically, from reviews of his work such as this one https://monthlyreview.org/press/201187/

        • Makan@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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          2 days ago

          I’ve heard mixed things, good and bad, and that’s why I (partly) intend to read it, but keep in mind that Monthly Review, while good, isn’t the only authority on Marxism-Leninism.

          I will give you my thoughts and report back on the book; at the very least, Perry Anderson has been quite critical of Western Marxism.

    • Makan@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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      2 days ago

      I’ve read Domenico Losurdo, but honestly, I’ve also read Hinterland, and frankly, most people in China aren’t “good comrades” either; most aren’t communist and neither was it with the Soviet Union.

      You don’t need everyone to be a communist and anti-imperialist; there are more anti-imperialists in the USA, judging by the orgs, than there are outright anti-imperialist communists (excluding the fucking PatSocs).