Removed by mod
the amount of Fascist, Jingoistic shitposting that favors either Republican or Russian propaganda on social media is STAGGERING. The people arguing for it are more concerned about bathroom gender signs, DEI, wokism, and a bunch of other made up stuff, and not only are they oblivious that their country is being taken over by a foreign aggressor, THEY ARE PROUD OF IT. Because “at least the Russians kill the gays”
We are in this position we are today, because Russia has been waging an information war against NATO countries for 15-20 years. and the seeds they planted during the days of Georgia and Crimea, are blooming into fruit now.
The free world is AT WAR with Russia, and for the time being, America has been conquered. Victory from the jaws of Defeat, for the Russian mafia
So we must just support your piece of shit Ukraine because you feel its the right thing to do? fucking delusion using every single buzzword, that just shows how fucking insane you are dumb clown doesnt even know the definition of a fascist, clown world
Exhibit A right here
Ukrainian flag then wants to say “exhibit A” thats such a gotcha, however will I respond.
Clown.
How about you follow your own advice from another comment and give up on your argument that you’re losing? This isn’t a video game, you know.
Argument that I’m losing according to whose metric? yours? fucking laughable get off your high horse clown.
do you remember what they said? By the time I looked at the reply, the account was banned
edit - I dont think I need to know, was able to trace some of their comments on another instance, dude is shreiking about free speech. one of those people who wants to spit vicious hateful bile but be protected from consequences.
people like that are lucky they have keyboards, they generally get punched / stabbed / shot for that kind of behaivor in the real world.
Trump is definitely aligned with Russia, but that’s very far from being conquered.
Putin has succeeded in stopping US aid to Ukraine, splintering NATO and isolating US from all its previous allies. That is very much Russian victory over the US.
They dont need to invade to conquer. They already control the president. he just ended aid to Ukraine. He literally will not say anything bad about Russia. he is bought, paid for, and owned.
America is currentley, and indefinetely, an enemy of the free world.
Ah yes, good old “Let me post any literal shit because if readers want, they must prove it themself”. That’s impolite, but understandable. But for God’s sake, to post logically malformed statements and wait for readers to indicate it is a whole new level of egoism.
Not tell me, proud democrat, if Russia invaded with its army Ukraine in 2022, then with whom was Ukraine reaching those mystical 20 cease-fire agreements 8 years before? About what were there agreements when there litreally was no Russian army and Ukraine was fighting its own regions for years?
Ukraine and russia were at war in 2014 look up the minsk agreements. In 2022 putin decided the minsk agreements didn’t exist and invaded ukraine.
Now before you say anything. This took me 1 minute to look up via google on a wiki page
So proud, err. i guess repulican? Do you feel humbled at all by the evidence to backup ops picture i just provided?
“wikipedia-which-can-be-edited-by-anyone” is of course iron edidence to be humbled by.
But even if you take a little bit more time than just 1 minute to evaluate arguments or at least scroll that same page lower, you will see some interesting facts. Unsurprisingly, Ukraine was never planning to fullfill those agreements and Europe was only depicting diplomatic activity, trying to maximally arm Ukraine. None were giving a damn about people on the problem lands. Yes, they were obviously supported by Russia, but it was support, never ordering, in contrast to Ukraine planning to subjugate separatic regions.
So what again was the diplomatic role of the vaunted give-me-all-your-weapons beggar Zelensky?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements#:~:text=Oleksii Arestovych%2C a,its armed forces.
Also, i forgot to say.
How are you going to discredit wikipedia as something that can be edited by anyone and say that makes it an unreliabke source and then point to another paragraph on the same page from the same source and call it evidence to back your argument. Either the source is good or it’s bad. You can’t have it both ways.
So the line you are referring to:
Oleksii Arestovych, a former member of the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine said in 2024 that Ukraine never planned to fulfill the terms of Minsk II accords.[124]
Is immediately followed up by this section:
Angela Merkel said in 2022 that the agreement had been “an attempt to give Ukraine time”; Reuters reported that Ukraine used this time to strengthen its armed forces.[125] In an interview to Semen Pegov in 2024 former head of DPR Alexander Borodai explained that, in military terms, the Russian intervention in Ukraine should have started already in 2014 but Russia was not ready for that in economic, military and propaganda sense, which is why Russia entered the Minsk Agreements with no intention of complying, but it gave it time to prepare the full-scale invasion.
So it would seem that despite your insistance that the oroginal post is factually incorrect, and despite the fact that it would seem russia also had no intention of complying either. Russia did, in fact, break those agreements, making the original post at least partially correct. Ukraines intentions dont actually change that fact.
I think if you want to argue that the original post it propaganda, you should maybe back it up.
This thing is a bot. Unless they decided that after not commenting on anything for over a year they would bust out anger over Ukraine.
Claiming everyone with another opinion a bot (a metal with no feelings and rights for its own truth) is so democratic.
I do not and never had any anger over Ukraine. I left the comment only to this particular post because it is screaming unproofed propaganda for the dictator Zelensky.
What have you been doing for a year, then? Do you stand behind Russia and agree that Ukraine gives up its land to Putin, a known dictator? What evidence do you have that Zelensky is a dictator? Don’t say elections because as you probably know he is following Ukrainian law by not holding them during war time.
> I do not and never had any anger over Ukraine.
> dictator Zelensky.
there litreally was no Russian army
This is factually incorrect.
Ok, then why post is calling 2.24.2022 russian invasion when according to you army was already there? More looks like epic russian pull-ups of reserves then?
Russia was supporting problematic regions to stand their own rights with arms and mens but nothing more. There were no official manifestation of russian intrusion. Even in the already mentioned here minsk agreements the main Kyiv opposition signs were from the DPR leader Aleksandr Zakharchenko and LPR leader Igor Plotnitskiy. Russian ambassador Mikhail Zurabov was only sideways witness along with Heidi Tagliavini OSCE representative.
i guess the continued shelling of civilians in donbass and the rise of the banderites is russias fault too
Since both exist only in russian imagination, yes
I mean, technically sort of, yeah. Continued russian aggression and interference most definitely contributed to the rise of political extremism. Which just so happened to give the Kreml plenty of reason for further interference, such as the direct deployment of “volunteers” into the civil war.
Russia would have had the opportunity to support Russian communities in Ukraine peacefully, for example with beneficial trade agreements and cultural exchange programs. Unfortunately for these Russian communities, all the Kreml knows are diplomatic pressure and coercion and force of arms. As such, Russian culture was regarded as a mark of oppresion and the communities became targets of both Russian and Ukrainian nationalists - either as enemies, or potential agents.
Before the full scale invasion, more than half of Kyiv residents preferred speaking russian over Ukrainian in day to day communication, myself included. If the invasion never happened, I’d still be speaking russian. They literally did it to themselves.
Weird how banderites never “shelled civilians” before russian invasion, innit?
banderites never “shelled civilians”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Donetsk,_Rostov_Oblast
On 13 July 2014, mortar shells fired from Ukrainian territory landed in the courtyard of a private home in the border town of Donetsk. The shelling killed one civilian and injured two others
The Ukraine-Russia conflict has begun to sound a lot like the Israel-Gaza conflict, in so far as you’ve got these little media bubbles where “My side has NEVER done ANYTHING wrong and they just want to kill all of us, so everyone on their side is a valid target for shelling.”
You were unable to understand a very short sentence? Alright, I’ll bite.
Yeah, absolutely, these are very similar conflicts, essentially these are - one imperialist country is trying to completely erase another smaller one, by whatever means necessary. Again, even if this was done by UAF, this wouldn’t have happened without r*ssian invasion.
Russian assistance to Donbas came after Banderite/Azov terrorism. Also, the ceasefire breaking accusations are against Donbas leaders who just wanted autonomy inside Ukraine until the SMO became the necessary action to protect them, and protect Russia against NATO.
Russian assistance to Donbas came after Banderite/Azov terrorism.
Certain liberals simply cannot believe Ukraine might hold it’s own violent reactionary elements, posed to do violence against ethnic Russian civilians.
That’s why you had the Canadian parliament applauding a member of the Wauffin SS a few years back.
That’s why liberals will refer to Russian conscripts as “Orks” and make up fanciful stories about 40 beheaded babies to justify hospital bombing in Gaza City.
That’s why Americans elected a Mussolini loving convicted criminal to their highest office, for fear of a brown woman candidate being too nice to other brown people.
The propaganda machine is eating itself. Westerners are completely incapable of seeing through their local brand of fascist agitprop.
Biden was the most neocon/zionist/republican/warmonger the DNC loved, but manufacturing a war on Russia was not an election platform. I won’t condemn liberalism, except for the complete stupidity of trusting DNC to be a liberal organization instead of warmongering neocons first. The gullibility that Biden/DNC must be good just because they are the lesser evil, just led to protests over the weekend for more war on Russia.
We’ve reached body snatcher level of political dysfunction. I’m still resistant to impune liberal rationality. Trump or Putin Derangement syndrome is simply disturbing people to be against peace. Let me assure everyone that war on Russia was and still is a bad idea. Surely a new war will happen soon enough for you to be happy again.
And then they suddenly have been doing it for 8 years
Your comment contains as many sources as there is punctuation marks. Do tell me more?
e: that came across as unusually short. I’m interested in learning of this shelling, I’ve not heard of civilian targeting.
I went hunting for sources and found this. It seems to highlight the chaos in the region more than assigning blame.
Of course it is, it always is
Are these things that happened in the magnitude you are implying?
Reminder: Russia violated all of these uninformed.
Also, why is this posted here? This is not a meme.
The CIA sponsored a coup in 2014 that overthrew their democratically elected president. America is using Ukraine and Ukraine is using America as Europe is left with the bag and the only person that suffers really is the working class. Both parties are a uni party and Americans have no say in foreign policy. If you feel you’re on the winning side, it’s just because you were convinced. The political landscape is pretty tangled at the moment. But if you have any damn lick of sense, you would say it’s the capitalist class sending us all to die so they can do land grabs. America is the world’s hegemon at the moment entering a multi-polar world as it is a imperialist, fascist empire waning in power. China is not a communist country, Russia is not a communist country, and it seems the world is evening out and terrorism is a way to do business. I hate liberals because they are the controlled opposition that poses as the voice of the working class and uses minorities as human shields in this era of wokism. Well the right wing is just blatantly despicable. I love how everyone kind of lives in a bubble. And all of a sudden, in their little tiny vacuum, they have an opinion about something. And it definitely lacks nuance. This is an era where capitalism is centralizing around the world. and the system is cannibalizing itself. While we at the bottom flail about struggling just to eat and stay warm, as we lose even more and more autonomy, putting all of our energy into anti-social games that the rich watch from a distance, as they drink their wine and eat their cheese. Get this Libby Libturd shit out of here. No war but the class war. Ukraine is not a democracy. Ukraine is sacrificing its own people for short term gains. Ukraine is an ultra-nationalist, Nazi sympathizing country where any other voice is snuffed out. Also, Russia hates gay people. It’s fucked all around the world. Ukraine outlawed the Communist Party and a lot of crazy anti-social shit that I know you’re not picking up on. When people put these types up posters out I just think to myself they’re not serious people like either they just want to win their arguments or they’re just emotional and feel conflicted and then motivated, or they’re just not serious historians. If you’re a good faith person, I would take down this poster because you look silly. And I would look into historical events and actually see this from a broader view from a higher position. I’ve been on this planet for 40 years, and I’ve watched these goofball games play out over and over again. I’m also a little bit more politically conscious than most. It depends on how close you get kissed by the chaos if you choose to pay attention or not. Don’t be a useful idiot. Don’t get activated. Learn. Learn, learn, learn. Learn about every single country that exists on this planet. Learn its history and how it fits into the bigger picture. And you will realize that there is no war but the class war.
Nice pasta.
Do you think they know that you need two line breaks to make a paragraph? Or is it just hard to find the enter key on a Cyrillic keyboard?
Fuck lemmy for leaking politics to every possible community and not removing it on user reports. What a cesspool of a platform.
You can absolutely want peace and even agree to concessions to Russia to reach a sustainable peace, but this point is absolutely valid: there must be security guarantees, otherwise Putin will just use the armistice to rebuild its strength and attack again.
Like all the guarantees before it, trusting the scorpion will only get the frog drowned.
As a disgusted American… SLAVA UKRAINE!
I’m sorry my country is acting so poorly
There are already were security guarantees, and then the US and their puppet in Ukraine violated their agreements.
Oh, absolutely. We want peace more than anyone else, but giving putin a chance to regroup, pull more support together and attack again is not peace, it’s surrender
it’s surrender
That’s generally what happens when, you know, you’re losing a war.
Oh. And after I went to trouble of typing all that big wall of text in response to your other comment, giving you the benefit of the doubt of arguing in good faith.
Ukraine, Russia, the DPR and LPR signed a ceasefire agreement, the Minsk Protocol, in September 2014.[40] Ceasefire breaches became rife, 29 in all,[41] and heavy fighting resumed in January 2015, during which the separatists captured Donetsk Airport. A new ceasefire, Minsk II, was agreed on 12 February 2015. Immediately after, separatists renewed their offensive on Debaltseve and forced Ukraine’s military to withdraw.[42] Skirmishes continued but the front line did not change. Both sides fortified their position by building networks of trenches, bunkers and tunnels, resulting in static trench warfare.[43][44] Stalemate led to the war being called a “frozen conflict”,[45] but Donbas remained a war zone, with dozens killed monthly.[46] In 2017, on average a Ukrainian soldier died every three days,[47] with an estimated 40,000 separatist and 6,000 Russian troops in the region.[48][49] By the end of 2017, OSCE observers had counted around 30,000 people in military gear crossing from Russia at the two border checkpoints it was allowed to monitor,[50] and documented military convoys crossing from Russia covertly.[51] All sides agreed to a roadmap for ending the war in October 2019,[52] but it remained unresolved.[53][54] During 2021, Ukrainian fatalities rose sharply and Russian forces massed around Ukraine’s borders.[55] Russia recognised the DPR and LPR as independent states on 21 February 2022 and deployed troops to those territories. On 24 February, Russia began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, subsuming the war in Donbas into it.
Make no Mistake: Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine since 2014. Russia is the agressor and needs to put in its place.
Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine ever since both of them were founded as independent counties. This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR. History is a merry-go-round and I’m getting motion sick of all the rotation.
Edit: typo
Goes back to the Russian Revolution at the very least, though probably to the the Russian Empire. Historical data send to suggest that the Russian elite will not accept anyone but Russian hegemony over the region. The Bolsheviks betrayed the Ukrainian Anarcho-Communists who had helped to defeat the White army because they wanted independent self-governance rather than bowing to the Bolsheviks’ authoritarian Central Council in Moscow.
This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR
Comparing the Russian Empire and the USSR is the most ahistorical thing you can possibly do. During the Russian Empire and for all of history before that, Ukraine was a people without a nation. Oppressed, without representation, without borders, without a right to education or even learning to read in their language.
The Bolsheviks, with their first constitution in 1917, granted the right to self-determination and secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire, which Lenin referred to as “the prison of peoples”. Quite literally after Poland seceded in this legal fashion, the Polish government decided it wanted to return to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, and proceeded to unilaterally invade Ukraine and part of modern Belarus. It was the Red Army of the Russian Socialist Federation of Soviet Republics, that fought off the Polish invasion and established a lasting Ukrainian People’s Republic for the first time in history.
This wasn’t without controversy: while Lenin argued for the right to representation and to a Ukrainian Republic within the USSR, others like Rosa Luxembourg argued for a united, more homogeneous sort of socialist soviet nationality that outgrew former nationalisms. It is partially thanks to Lenin that Ukraine ended up having its own borders, administration and representation.
I know what you’ll say: “but Holodomor! Genocide against Ukrainians!”. The famine of the USSR was a sad and unintended consequence of bad policy during the collectivisation/dekulakization process of the early 30s. Millions of people died both within Ukraine and without it, especially as well in Central Asia and southern Russia. As bad as it was, and as avoidable as one can argue it may have been, there’s simply no evidence of any intent of attack towards Ukrainian people, it’s not precedented by anything similar, and it’s not followed by anything similar in the entire history of the USSR.
In those decades and the ones to come, Ukraine would obtain and solidify its own nationality, people would for the first time obtain generalised literacy in their own language, the right to study in their language up to university level, a majority of publications (both journalistic and literary) in Ukrainian, and the very next president of the USSR Nikita Khruschchyov would be Ukrainian.
Attempting to construe a history of oppression of Ukrainians in the USSR is nothing but fictitious, anti-communist and russophobic propaganda, meant to create a divide between Ukrainians and Russians. There are clear geopolitical reasons to do so, and there are clear reasons why Ukrainians are very much afraid or simply hate Russians, because of the modern proto-fascist state that the Russian Republic has become. But creating a line between this capitalist country, the socialist USSR, and the feudalist Russian Empire, is simply an attempt to divide Eastern Europe further and to push Ukraine towards the EU and away from Russia. This point can be argued for without resorting to russophobic and anticommunist myths. We’re smarter than this.
No, the US overthrew the Ukrainian government to install a far-right fascist regime in 2014, and Russia’s was playing defense for 8 years afterward.
https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/6kwrs4pplmwj2nxzy9el73gx2w9cfn
The US and NATO are the main aggressors here.
Fool me once, shame on me, fool me 20 times and I should sign away half my country’s mineral wealth for no guarantees and no gains…
If somebody fools you twenty times they are (best case scenario) literally Loki.
I dunno, there are a tonne of incredibly stupid and uncreative people who conservatives believe every day for years. The part about loki seems to be a statisical outlier not just “best case scenario”, ya know?
So what’s the alternative?
Can you really not imagine an alternative?
I see plenty of alternatives, just not one in which people stop dying immediately.
History teaches us that Russia cease fire agreements mean that fewer die immediately but that lasts a far shorter time than you hope for. In the end, even more people die than before when Russia resumes their aggression.
This is not a prediction or an opinion. That are literally dozens of historical events to draw this information from.
According to what you’re saying, the only solution is NATO troops fighting in Ukraine because we cannot trust Russia in any way, shape or form.
When are you willing to enroll to go to the front?
You have textbook RT talking points. It’s so fucking obvious you’re a russian asset at the very keast
Yeah bro, everyone who doesn’t have your specific world view is a russian asset. What, are you 12?
Give Ukraine everything they need to kick the Russians off their soil. Tomahawks, F35s, a million artillery shells a week, etc… lift all usage restrictions with the exception of civilian targets and infrastructure. Once every square inch of Ukraine is back in Ukrainian hands full NATO membership and a Marshall like recovery plan.
Or assassinate Putin. As long as Putin lives Ukraine is under threat.
and infrastructure.
No. That has to go. The war will end a lot sooner, if there aren’t any bridges and rails left, the Russkies can use to ship ammo and cannon fodder.
I meant civilian infrastructure. So like power stations or shipping centers that handle civilian goods or subways etc… If it carries a single artillery round it’s fair game.
How did we reach a point where the most hawkish warmongering psychos think they’re left-leaning?
Fighting fascists is a long standing tradition of the left. Pick up a history book idiot.
Why did the US install a fascist government in Russia?
That’s unsustainable, brainless and unrealistic, who is going to pay and fight if the war continues for 5 more years, what about 10 more years?
Russia does not have the capacity to fight 5 or 10 more years (unless the US backstops them). Ukraine does not need the resources to go 10 years. They need the resources to outlast the Russians. That is probably more like 18 to 24 months. It could be less.
In my view, that is not only affordable but quite inexpensive given the benefits.
Europe and the US have contributed about $250 billion collectively over the last 3 years (Europe has contributed more). That is a small amount of money for either of them. Most of the $120 billion the US counts as Ukraine aid has been spent on new weapons systems for the United States for the US military. The US builds themselves new weapons, sends Ukraine old ones, and counts the value of the old weapons as Ukraine aid. The thing is, most of these weapons would have been decommissioned in a few years without being used (assuming the US does not enter any major wars). So, the “real” cost to the US is actually far less.
Both the US and Europe not only can sustain their current commitment. They could easily increase it without breaking a sweat. I lay no claim to it but Norway alone has a $1.7 trillion dollar pile of cash.
In my view, the real question is who is going to pay for the aftermath of Russia’s continued aggression if they are allowed to invade Ukraine?
Was it cheaper to have World War II or to stop Germany in Poland or Czechoslovakia? What would we have done in 1945 if given the chance to do it again?
Perhaps you are right that it is unrealistic. That is more an opinion than a demonstrable fact and my opinion is no better than yours.
I am not sure I can agree that it is brainless. While that is also an opinion, there are lots to facts to counter that argument.
Supporting Ukraine no matter what it takes seems like the clear and obvious choice. I guess that is why it is what every country that matters is doing (except the US—now).
Do you have a better argument?
Looks like we’ll meet again here in a few years, after thousands more will die and more territory will be lost to argue again about how this war can hypothetically end, just because Zelensky’s ego was too big.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives
Russia is importing North Koreans to fight. You think if Ukraine gets unlimited weapons the war will last 5 more years? What day of the 3 day invasion are we on now?
The only reason the war has lasted this long is because of the drip feeding of weapons. which was probably a ploy to extend the war and make defense contractors more rich. So yeah, end it quickly by giving Ukraine what it needs to win.
So, what’s your "totally realistic"TM solution?
Weapons don’t win wars, people do, and Ukraine has a severe troops shortage right now that will only get worse as the war goes on. You can give them all the weapons in the world, if there’s no one there to fire them, they’ll still lose
These people are delusional, the liberation of Ukraine can only happen if NATO troops land on the battlefield. And we all know that means nuclear war.
Guess India just lacked the manpower to kick out the Brits. Same with the Japanese and *checks notes, 4 American ships.
Weapons absolutely matter.
That is fundementally wrong. Firepower absolutely makes up for numbers disadvantage.
if a hundred Russians, Norks and other Mercenaries and their vehicles get smoked in a battle by a single cluster bomb. Rinse and repeat
Looks like I was right and there’s no other real alternative, which is why Zelenskyy did a 180 on the minerals deal 🤷♂️:
https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Theory that more weapons wins is based on Russia being overextended and not outproducing west by itself. Your point on “endless war being perfect US policy” is the right one. Wining a war is always terrible. It means an end to war, and just look at how sad everyone around here is about that prospect. That Ukraine could suffer far more destruction, as retaliation for the special weapons it uses for terrorism inside Russia, is far more likely, as is striking western nations as punishment for “breaking the script of a slow war of attrition with eventual Russian victory”.
ATCMS got Ukraine electricity sector destroyed, instead of winning. US can produce 60 per year.
Out producing the west by itself? Bwahaahhahahahaa.
3 times the artillery shells as US+Europe combined
Your propaganda bubble is not there to help you.
deleted by creator
Seriously they should just assassinate Putin at this point. If he’s anything like Trump then half of Russia will be joyful.
Oh he’s worse than Trump, in that most of russia actually worships him. He’s literally not giving his country a chance to think about alternatives.
Russians overwhelmingly understand this is a defensive war for them. The most extreme delusional propaganda we are fed is that provoking this war would help overthrow Putin with pro NATO liberalism. NATO is not a purely defensive alliance desperately trying to convince Russians of love and freedom from submission to them.
Yes, I’m sure Russians believe that invading another nation and sending their children to die is “defensive.” After all, they’re fed the propaganda of the fascist dictator, Putin. Just as the people of North Korea are made to believe the outside world is evil…
The far-right in Ukraine was slaughtering ethnic Russians for 8 years before the invasion, and letting NATO move in missile & troop deployments to the Russian border. Yes, that kind of thing makes people feel as though they’re on the defensive.
Ukraine had a ceasefire agreement 7 days after the invasion. The US & UK got them to walk away from it.
https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/6kwrs4pplmwj2nxzy9el73gx2w9cfn
I also can’t imagine this ends with the current far-right regime maintaining their grip on power, nor being allowed to continue the genocide of ethnic Russians in the east.
We are not just believing propaganda anymore. Ukraine can either work to stop this war or keep it going with out US support. Good luck to them! Russia can say the same about the NATO and Ukraine but that wouldn’t fit the agenda.
You’re not just believing propaganda anymore. You’re also spreading it.
Yeah I spread facts not propaganda. Did NATO break its promise to Russia after Russia allowed democracy at its door step when Ukraine became a independent country?
Haha of course. An “oral agreement” that nobody has any record of. They called no takesies backsies, too!
Here’s an actual promise that really was agreed to. Signed by Russia. In writing. You know, like what happens when countries actually agree to things in the real world and not in Russian propaganda la la land.
You are a scum bag just like Zelensky! - Providing dirty links should get your account deleted! -
My bad for sending a mobile link. I am indeed a scumbag.
Please say you forgot the /s
Oh, so we’re ‘not just believing propaganda anymore’—except for the part where you parrot Russia’s favorite talking points? Ukraine didn’t start this war; Russia did. Telling Ukraine to ‘work to stop it’ is like blaming a robbery victim for not handing over their wallet fast enough. If you’re done with propaganda, maybe start by questioning the one that excuses the actual aggressor.
When Ukraine gained independence, Russia’s understanding was that it would accept the emergence of democracy on its doorstep in exchange for assurances regarding security. Specifically, the agreement entailed that NATO would not expand beyond Germany. In the early 1990s and again in 2000, Russia sought to join NATO, only to be rebuffed. NATO, in turn, has often relied on portraying Russia as a threat to justify its military expenditures and equipment buildup. The conflict in Ukraine was sparked in large part by NATO’s eastward expansion, especially its support for Ukraine’s NATO aspirations and the subsequent military aid provided to Kyiv. To understand this complex geopolitical issue more fully, it is important to engage with historical sources rather than be swayed by biased narratives.
Why did they annex Crimea? Don’t want to next to NATO countries? Why not move deeper into your own country to distance yourself from them?
What is there to negotiate? If all the russians leave ukraine, ukranians will probably stop shooting them…
Russia has always firmly opposed expansion of NATO, including the missiles and NATO troops that were lined up at their border with Ukraine’s participation.
Why does Russia get to dictate what other countries do within their borders?
I’m pretty sure every country on earth would respond to a hostile force amassing troops & missiles at their border.
100% found a russian shill.
All those countries that joined NATO, Their sovereignty doesn’t end where hurt russian fee-fees begin
if Russia doesnt like it, then maybe they should reflect on how they acted like savage barbarians to those people throughout history. Maybe they should reflect that they aren’t entiteld to an “Empire” or a “Sphere of Influence” or whatever they want to call it. Reflect on the fact that Eastern and Central europe are not pawns and slaves to a larger power. but nations with agency, hopes, dreams and goals.
but they wont, Imperialism, Warmongering, and Genocide are married to the current excuse of “Russian Culture”
Yeah like, instead of taking a hard look into the mirror why countries kept wanting to join NATO, or why the russian-bloc equivalent failed so much, LULZ WE JUST GONNA WALTZ IN NO NATO PLOX.
Ah, nevermind, they did discover why so many countries wanted to join NATO. 😂
If it was about their sovereignty, it’s weird that you don’t mind NATO attacking their sovereignty to install pro-western politicians through corruption or straight up coups. “Sovereignty” only seems to matter when it’s anti-Russian.
It’s not about feelings. There were many agreements for NATO not to expand. They did it anyway. There are consequences for that.
Please educate me. Which countries had pro-western politicians “Installed”
And if you’re already typing Ukraine, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.
Ukraine, Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc.
Oh boy
So if they installed pro-western politicians in Ukraine, Why was the president of Ukraine at the time of Euromaidan checks notes Viktor Yanukovitch? the Pro-Russian fraudster who was once removed from the presidency after having cheated in the elections. and even afterward, managed to ratfuck his way into a term later on in 2010. Only to get Impeached and removed from power By his own government after he ordered the Berkut and Internal Troops to use lethal force against protestors.
this tired argument of western coups against these ex soviet countries always forgets to address the fact that a couple of suspicious phonecalls in embassies doesn’t hold the same power as millions of people taking to the streets over a government doing something that is widely unpopular.
if the CIA and all these other groups people accuse of toppling governments were as competent as fiction made them out to be, Joe Biden would still be President, Putin would be dead, Russia would be a balkanized state, and the Ukraine war would probably never have happened, and if it did, it would have been over by now with a Ukrainian victory.
No, you’re describing the Maidan Coup, which was backed by the US to install a far-right puppet regime because they opposed Yanukovitch maintaining neutrality with Russia, and not bowing to US demands to block a lease on a Crimean naval base.
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fucking pro ukraine redditors are EVERYWHERE
“The United States should invade a country that might in the future join an alliance to help prevent the US from invading other countries as we have in the past.” Do you realize how fucking stupid your nAtO eXpAnSiOn propaganda sounds!?
I’m literally just plainly stating historical events.
…that just so happen to line up with the propaganda of the Russian invaders.
Facts don’t stop being facts when a Russian says them. If they’re factually stating the sequence of events, it doesn’t change anything.
Lies don’t become true just because you keep saying “facts”. The Russian propaganda (that you’re parroting) is the untrue part, not the events themselves. Ukraine defending itself against Russia before and during their violent, illegal invasion is not an “expansion” and has nothing to do with NATO. Full stop.
Lies don’t become true, right back at you, clown.
I would go one further. Ukraine trying to join NATO is not a valid reason for an invasion. In fact, I can’t think of any valid reason for an invasion. Invading a country is wrong.
Maybe Ukraine wants to join NATO because they share a border with a gigantic country that wants to conquer them.
You are doing nothing of the sort, you are literally just regurgitating Putin propaganda.
Except Ukraine was on their border and not part of NATO and other countries on their border are. NATO Then Russia invaded and took the Crimean peninsula unprovoked. Not a surprise that Ukraine wants NATO membership, and now Finland joined NATO because of Russia’s attack on Ukraine, doubling the NATO/Russia border.
Incorrect. The Crimea invasion followed a soft coup of Ukraine by the US, wherein they installed a far-right puppet regime. The following years, Ukraine allowed a torrent of NATO & US troops and missile deployments to be installed at their border with Russia.
Where did you come up with this? At no time has the US or NATO had troops or missiles in Ukraine. Get your facts correct or say nothing.
“At no time,” when they’re there as we speak. So stupid.
Nope… you’re spreading bullshit. People got rid of a Putin puppet. Hope we do the same.
Do you think that NATO was planning to invade Russia? And if not, then WTF is Putin’s problem?
NATO wouldn’t need to expand if Russia wasn’t constantly threatening their neighbors.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
Complete horseshit. They literally invaded and installed a puppet regime in Chechnia, and there were zero NATO “expansion efforts” there. And that is just one example out of many.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
This is abuser logic. “If you would quit misbehaving, then I wouldn’t have to hit you!”
I see you haven’t spoken to many people from Finland… Or Latvia… Or Syria… Or Chechnya… Or Ukrainians, for that matter.
You wanna name anymore western imperialist projects?
“Everyone who’s afraid of Russia (for good reason) is a western imperialist project”
Russia was threatening their neighbors before NATO even existed.
NATO existed before Russia, genius. It’s an anti-Soviet org.
Your immense historical knowledge seems to have missed the fact that Russia existed long before the Soviet Union, Einstein.
You’re proposing that this Russia is the same one? When did they re-establish the czar?
NATO hasn’t “expanded” in a long time, until recently when Sweden and Finland decided to join. A decision that was made based on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So through Russia’s actions, two countries have decided to join an organisation that was made to opposed Russia.
Before that, no new members were accepted into NATO, even if they wanted to join, because NATO members weren’t really seeing the point of NATO anymore, and they didn’t see a reason to provoke Russia. That changed in 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine for the first time, and annexed Crimea.
Last but not least; NATO doesn’t expand. It’s not a nation with borders that grow through conquest or subjugation. It is a defensive pact that the peolpe of a nation must vote on to join. And then the members of NATO must unanimously vote on letting the new country join. It is voluntary and democratic.
So instead of shoutong “NATO IS EXPANDING, GRRR!!”, why not ask yourself “why would Russia’s neighbouring countries want to join NATO?”
Completely untrue. NATO has been expanding since the 90’s.
Of course it has. Of course it has. I mean, if your dillusions help you find your happy place, who am I to judge, right?
The deal should be… All Russian troops get pulled out of Ukraine. Ukraine gets a lump sum of all seized Russian assets in foreign nations, Russia agrees not to move troops within 100 miles of Ukraine’s border without Ukraine’s consent. Ukraine agrees to allow and even assist civillain Russian services with locating and returning living and deceased Russians.
The alternative is we take the limits off of what targets can be attacked within Russia, and enable Ukraine to enforce the conditions as proposed.
I’d also like to add that Russia and the US give up their UN “super veto” power. I don’t think anything good and effective can come from the UN when a single country can just “nope” any UN proposals.
Veto power in the UN is a short for “we will use nukes if you do this”. The UN is not world government, it’s the organisation which task(among many less important things) is to prevent nuclear war.
Ah, that explains why India and North Korea have veto power.
As good as this comment is, neither has the range or targeting capability that the US does or that the USSR did.
The security council veto was designed to keep the US and the USSR at the negotiating table and off the battlefield.
