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Speaking of not being able to delete system apps, a friend of mine with a Pixel phone says Google Play cannot be uninstalled from it. Anybody know for sure?
It’s a Pixel… Y’know, the phone universally supported by degoogled OSes including Graphene? The ease of unlocking the bootloader is the only reason I have one at all!
You can via adb ( android debug bridge ) , no root needed, but you need a pc or shizuku. Although if he has a pixel device he should just install GrapheneOS imo. Edit: puxel -> pixel
That’s big talk coming from the least-used OS 😂
If something is popular, that does not automatically mean it is good. You are probably aware of how collectively stupid we can be as a species.
Don’t fall for his flame bait. Linux is the number one used OS in the world. Linux dominates every market except Console and Desktop. Once Microsoft can no longer use vendor lockin to artificially maintain it’s grip on the Desktop market, you’ll see all kinds of engineering dollars poor into Desktop Linux from OEMs. Look at OSX, flopped in the Server market (dispite being “technically” Unix). Apple shut down an entire division (XServe), because OSX Server sucked so bad. Azure is getting dominated by Linux. Linux has 80% of the IoT market despite Windows being free for IoT. OSX and Windows only exist because of Vendor lockin.
True, just like you were allowed to drink and drive…
Nice try. Keep living in fear of updates.
like windows update KB5033052?
Updates are one thing, forced updates and an occasional restart while you’re actually using the system is a totally different thing.
Of course Linux has regular updates, but it’s not gonna force you to restart, you just restart when you’re good and ready.
I find it hilarious that the first architecture change in 10 years, that happened seven years ago, still causes anxiety and pain for people who don’t even use that operating system and probably never did.
I wonder how much Linux usership is owed to people being completely incapable of dealing with a minor inconvenience they once encountered (or only saw a meme about) on an apple product.
The sun puts out less energy than is wasted by people hating on Apple for completely and utterly irrational reasons.
An equal amount of wasted energy is output defending a trillion dollar corporation that doesn’t care about those defending them at all. Apple be fine. Let’s just use our computers and move on with our lives; it doesn’t have to be personal.
Defending the truth seems worthwhile to me. Even if for a mega corporation. There are valid criticisms to be used… but this is not one of them. We can do better!
I’m pretty sure the meme is factually correct: you can’t run 32 bit applications on current versions of macOS. Unless something has changed recently that I don’t know of. Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps? I have a vague memory of my partner not being able to use an “old” version of an app and also not being able to update it so they simply couldn’t use it. That could be on the app developer though. Both of those a relevant to “old apps”.
If the meme is referring only to arm64 then eh I guess it’s a bit of a stretch but whatever, it’s a meme.
I agree there are many more, and much more annoying, criticisms though.
Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps?
I haven’t used iOS in 10 years, but I do recall that even on older Android devices, Netflix wants you to keep closer to the current version (oddly enough, even for a 1st or 2nd gen Chromecast?). So I think not technically, although I don’t know the current status, but even so, yeah, but same as Android too. Ofc, at some point the device gets so old that Apple won’t let you update it any longer, so that’s one way to get it to stop updating:-P.
In researching this a bit more, I confirm that 64-bit Mac not running 32-bit programs is a valid criticism. However, my original point stands: what Linux system can also allow you to do similarly? Especially across a different chip set - like why expect a 64-bit Mac M-something to run a 32-bit game compiled for Windows using a x86 architecture, without needing to install something else to specifically handle that transition? Here is an example of someone doing the same with Ubuntu, needing to first install multiple libraries before it will “just work”.
Even so, there are multiple ways to make this procedure work on a Mac. Other than dual booting with an older copy of a 32-bit OS, emulators can work at near native speeds. Granted, it’s not as convenient as Wine (I would guess?), and won’t be until someone puts in the effort to make a 64-bit version of Wine (which does exist) that will natively support 32-bit programs, again compiled for a different OS (Windows) and chip architecture (x86). It only won’t work until… you know, it does.
Which it already does, using the likes of either Parallels or VMWare Fusion, which yeah requires the complexity of downloading an additional program and setting up a VM environment.
On the other hand, notice how according to this meme, there are zero problems with Linux, like EVER. In comparison, having to download an extra program, due to an event that happened all of once in the last 20 years of computing, and even that was 6 years ago now… apparently that’s “too much work”? How did this meme creator (which seems not OP according to other comments here) figure out how to join a Lemmy - wouldn’t having to pick an instance first likewise be too much to handle?! 😜
I kid, but this kind of tribal thinking (“in-group good, out-group bad”) doesn’t help anything, imho.
Hmm the type of thinking that implies Linux users only say bad things about Apple because they don’t know what they’re talking about? :)
You can 100% run 32 bit binaries on Linux systems so the answer is all of them. The need for libraries isn’t the same as the complete inability to do so, any program with dependencies of course needs them and they of course have to be compatible. Hell with
binfmt_miscyou can even run arm32/aarch64 binaries, but that’s not fair I guess since it’ll be transparent qemu emulation, although still pretty cool.Also my view of this meme isn’t that it’s implying that there are no issues, just that it doesn’t force things on you or stop you from doing things which is generally true.
Where did I say “Linux users”? Or for that matter, “only”? We were discussing the OP meme, not extrapolating beyond that to stereotype all Linux users. I mean… I use Linux, so why would I stereotype myself like that as well!?:-P
Also where did “complete inability to do so” come from? You can use emulation software such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion, or you could dual-boot into a 32-bit OS. So there’s 3 ways to accomplish the task. Granted, none as easy as if the Wine FOSS had decided to implement the task by itself, but just because they choose not to does not mean that any of those other 3 approaches will not work (bc they will).
Though yeah, I could see your last point. Tim Cook’s Apple making that business decision to switch from Intel x86 to the M-series chips and then not provide a Rosetta internal emulation system definitely can earn that for-profit corporation some negative thoughts, in comparison to FOSS. Then again, it sorta makes sense to me bc it’s a very niche case, to emulate old 32-bit x86 Windows programs on a 64-bit M-series modern Mac. They decided that the cost wasn’t worth it to them, when Parallels and VMWare Fusion already can handle the situation. So following that logic, shouldn’t we similarly be making fun of Wine, for also not stepping up to fill this gap? And all the more so bc it’s not a greedy for-profit megamaniacal corporation, but supposed to be there to provide for people’s needs, free of cost? I wonder what the logic behind that was? Perhaps that Steam exists now, so the need for such is again… just like for the Apple corporatization… too niche to bother with? If both for-profit Apple and FOSS Wine are in agreement here on that point, then I don’t really see the meme as much of a humorous joke. But maybe I’m just too unfunny to get it:-D.
Meanwhile i got an 1988 japanase source code to compile and work on windows 11 without any problem. I can even send it if you want to see. It was written by prof emeritus Haruhiko Okamura in 1988.
Neat, that says a lot about the programmer too, although Windows is famous for bending over backwards for backwards compatibility.
It’s probably more likely that they just needed to find something bad to say about Macs, and were too lazy to find one of the actual legitimate reasons (like it being closed source or something? probably bc the one used “sounds better”, to someone who can’t recognize that it is gaslighting).
The amount of purity whinging in Linux communities generally makes me sorry whenever I respond to one of these posts. On the other hand, I am not smart so here goes once more into the fray… 🤪
I just don’t get this delusion that “closed source” = evil.
Then again, I never “got” fanatical movements or beliefs.
I never “got” fanatical movements or beliefs.
Said the guy defending Apple on Lemmy. Oh, boy.
This is a good thing 😊
Tbf, I think the idea is that closed source is not necessarily “bad” per se but rather “unstable”, like how Reddit was closed source and then enshittified, leaving no access to it. Which reveals the limitations of that style of thinking: part of what made Reddit so accessible was that it was centralized, so even if someone did spin up a new Reddit (didn’t that actually happen, now that I come to think of it? or at least an older version of its sourcecode?), it still would not work to replace the “Reddit” that we knew. There can be only one… for such a non-federated platform.
Conversely, Kbin was open source, and spawned Mbin after Kbin.social died and Ernst stopped working so much on Kbin. Then again… look at Mbin now, barely any further ahead than it was when it was still Kbin? (In contrast, PieFed is adding new features like mad!) And the OP meme seems to me more a reflection on how open-source Wine never bothered to add support for running 32-bit x86 old Windows on a 64-bit modern Mac running on an M-series chip. In contrast, there are multiple other solutions already existing: Parallels, VMWare Fusion, and dual booting with a 32-bit Mac OS to name 3 examples. Just bc Wine doesn’t do the task, doesn’t mean that other, non-FOSS software can’t and won’t.
And even on Linux, you still would need the extra step to install libraries to get 32-bit programs running on a 64-bit architecture. So downloading and installing stuff isn’t limited to just Macs, it’s Linux too, for this exact scenario.
Or, to hear the meme tell it, Linux never has any problems ever, i.e. “in-group good, but out-group bad”. Sigh…
Based on some of their arguments it feels like they’ve never actually used a Mac. “It’s for babies and old people” they cry, like there’s not an entire Unix system under the hood.
That’s like saying there is an entire Linux system under Android. Sure there is, but there is enough in the way to make the kernel not really accessible.
Are Linux users really working in the kernel all that much? I’ve been doing support for Linux sysadmins for a decade and not once have I needed to touch the kernel.
Mac is arguably more Unix than Linux is. Mind you, that doesn’t make it better, but yeah, why not allow people the freedom to choose?
Especially if your workplace is picking up the tab for the device, and all the more so if the only options are Windows vs. Mac bc that’s what the company has knowledge of due to them being used before.
Linux is great. Windows sucks ass. Mac is also great. What is so hard about saying that?
Mac is not great bc it is incredibly expensive and very restrictive, fully closed source. Most apps are paywalled too, you can barely do anything on a Mac if you are broke
Okay, but read my 3rd sentence. Though yeah, what you said is somewhat true as well - except that Mac OSX does provide a ton of stuff right out of the box, included in the price you might say, whoever pays it; also, many Linux programs require payment too, like a game on Steam, and also, many FOSS programs can work on Mac as well, especially if someone has already put in the effort to figure out how to get it to compile. So it’s not “barely anything”, even though it is lesser. Oh and also, if your work picks up the pricetag for the paid apps, then that solves that issue as well.
They both have their uses, by different people at different times - e.g. a Mac if you can get access to one, while a Linux at home if you cannot.
You can also remove the fr*nch language pack via
rm -fr /But in all seriosity, i tried to install Linux dual-boot with Windows on my dad’s computer last weekend, and it broke the windows install because it doesn’t support bitlocker (apparently). Maybe i could have gotten it to work, but i abandoned the project after the first failed attempt. Still a bit salty about that. Especially since it was meant to be a demonstration how “quick and easy” installing Linux nowadays supposedly is.
It is quick and easy. Maintaining any other OS side by side is always a bigger ordeal than not doing it. It breaks the other way around as well - If you were running some linux distro and then tried dual booting by installing windows - no way you’d be able to boot into linux without extra tweaking.
The best way to dual boot windows and linux is with separate drives, not partitions imo.
You’re missing the last step, throw out the windows drive.
I’d recommend separate computers
In separate buildings.
I’ll say it once, I’ll say it forever: Windows has better backward compatibility, period. Even compared to linux. Rebuilding an old open source linux app to work on a modern distro can be done, but it’s a process that could take hours or days. And if you don’t have the source code you’re shit out of luck. Have fun getting that binary built against a 1 year old version of glibc to work. This, incidentally is what things like flatpak, docker and ubuntu’s nonsense competitor to both (of which our hatred is entirely rational no really stop laughing) are trying to solve.
Meanwhile microsoft office still handles leap years wrong because it might break backwards compatibility with old documents. Binaries built for windows xp will usually just work on windows 11. Packages built for ubuntu 22.0 often won’t run on ubuntu 23.0. You never notice this because linux are a culture of recompilers. Rebuilding every last package once a month is just how some distros roll. But that’s not backwards compatibility, that’s ongoing maintenance.
Windows 11 isn’t even backwards-compatible with 7-year-old CPUs! Run a 32-bit or 16-bit (dos) exe on Win11/x64? Think again. Windows drivers are always a pain in the butt. Load up an old driver for your favorite peripheral? Probably won’t work.
Ah yes, because linux drivers never break!
You might not understand the pain if you don’t own a tv tuner card but trust me, it’s ROUGH!
Backwards compatibility, but at what cost?
The stifling of innovation. So that’s more of a feature to microsoft
But is that desirable? I’d rather break things in favor of something better, and provide a way to make the old thing run, than be stuck with ancient baggage
Also, while that’s true for software, compatibility for old hardware is horrible under Windows
I’d rather break things in favor of something better, and provide a way to make the old thing run, than be stuck with ancient baggage
Windows is office software first and foremost, designed to be used by people who neither know nor care what an “operating system” is. Every last one of these people is entirely incapacitated by even the most lovingly-crafted and descriptive error message. If Microsoft ever considered a policy like this, the city of Redmond would be razed to the ground inside twelve hours
I prefer ongoing maintenance over backwards compatibility, I can easily run such old software in an emulator in recent hardware.
My favourite thing about updates on my work Mac is when you say ‘try in one hour’ thinking it’ll ask you then an hour later it aggressively closes your programs. I use Linux, Mac and Windows regularly and Mac has by far the worst update experience out of all of them imo.
I’ve clicked the “install updates tonight” button a bunch of times, it consistently fails to update and then I have to force it to update the next morning. Incredibly poor experience.
Every day, for weeks, my Apple Watch notifies me about available updates when I put it on after charging. Why didn’t you install the updates while you were charging, then?! It only stops when I put it back on the charger and manually tell it to update.
Yes but it also reopens everything exactly as you left it, meaning you can update and not loose anything mission critical; ymmv ofc but in my personal experience MacOS has the best update experience from mainstream OS
You can totally stop updates on Windows. Fully off. They don’t offer good options for updating on demand on your own schedule, but you can disable updates entirely and for pro and enterprise skus you can use GPO for additional delay options.
“I can’t delete bloatware” - all 3 of them
Do android system apps count as bloatware? Cause on GrapheneOS you quite literally start out with the bare minimum on a fresh install.
I haven’t done too much in terms of messing around with system apps besides allowing/denying some permissions with Permission Manager X
I would say you can on do that on Windows and Android, but it is not intended by the OS and you have to work around certain measures. Linux just lets you do everything, even if it is a really bad idea
nah windows will not let you disable things like windows defender and telemetry, even if you have windows enterprise edition. It might be possible to delete it some of the bloatware, but it’ll just reinstall itself in an update.
Tbf not letting the average windows user turn off windows defender is a good idea
I was trying to delete a KDE program that I’ll never use, but Discover seemed to want to remove the whole pile of KDE Apps. I’m sure there’s a way.
Linux: i can’t stop dumb users (me) completely destroying everything with a bad console command
A great learning experience to not copy paste commands yoj don’t understand.
Breaking things is a valid way to start learning. Reading man pages is very often difficult and confusing for new users. And much of the documentation is crap anyway-- it’s why distro forums exist. And I’m from a time when distro upgrades/updates were sometimes dicey, (they still can break things on occasions), and you complied your kernel and drivers from scratch.
And also don’t run commands that require you to type in “do as I say” before they run
wget url | bash
Nice, now your computer is mining crypto for someone else or part of a botnet.
But that’s in my experience sadly very necessary especially in the beginning when you are getting into Linux. So getting into Linux has quite a steep learning curve because not knowing what you are copy pasting can have terrible consequences, but understanding everything before you copy paste is very demanding.
When out comes to my main rig, i never had the experience of everything just working out of the box. There was always something that required me searching for obscure fixes, hoping for the best.Very necessary
No it absolutely is not. When you’re looking up guides and come across an unfamiliar command, don’t copy and paste it and find out what it does. Google it. Man it. Research it. Stop copying and pasting commands you don’t understand.
My point is that if that is the case (and I do understand why) then i can’t possibly recommend Linux to people that don’t want their OS to be their hobby, because as for my experience they will come across something that needs some command line input.
They will come across something that needs some command line input
I would genuinely be surprised if you could give me an example of a command that can’t be replicated with a GUI in some way
Lots of install instructions are based on commands. If you know what they are doing, you might be able to replace them, but then you already understand them, so…
I’m pretty sure that if you use elevated privileges to run commands you don’t understand, you can break Windows just as much as you can break Linux. Windows might pop up an extra “Are you sure?” box or two though. It’s been a while since I did anything on that OS.
You can, but on windows there is no need usually to run these kind of commands.
What happened was that years ago I was trying out Ubuntu but didn’t like the UI, so I followed some steps from someone to replace the gnome or whatever with something else (kde?), but then the ui completely broke down.
Given how fickle that system is in Ubuntu, I was probably using legit sources for the commands, but they were not fully up to date and something went wrong.
Ironically, something similar happened lately on my Ubuntu virtual machine, where the file explorer has rendering issues, but tbh I think this time it was because the virtual machine disk space became full mid update, so kind of my bad too.
The only thing keeping me in windows these days is that I just really like the UI, but I think next time I need to format (which admittedly might be year or two from now) I might move to GraphyOS anyway.
I would not recommend someone who does not know what they are doing replacing the DE, the process heavily varies depending on your current setup. If you want Ubuntu with KDE, just use Kubuntu.
Android hate not tolerated. Android can delete system apps, if you aee root. On linux you can"t install or uninstall anything if you are not root
Considering how difficult it still can be to get root on Android, I understand the shade, though.
It requires an unlocked bootloader and an installed recovery
You can install an uninstall Flatpak applications in Linux as normal user.
On linux you can"t install or uninstall anything if you are not root
Wrong. You can install Flatpak apps as a user, which are very similar to apps on Android.
On linux you can"t install or uninstall anything if you are not root
That’s not true at all. You generally can’t use your distribution’s package manager to install or uninstall without elevated privileges. But you can download packages, or executables with their own installer, and unpack/install under your home directory. Or, you can compile from source, and if you
./configure’d it properlymake installwill put it under your home.Standard Linux distributions don’t place restrictions on what you can and cannot execute; if it needs permissions for device access of course you’ll need to sort that out.
have you like
ever actually tried installing an old app on linux
or accidentally had a power outage during an updateit literally can’t update without breaking and can’t install old apps lol
That’s literally just software stuff, not Linux’s fault lmao
And if it doesn’t affect Linux itself, it’s the developers fault
Yeah I’ve installed heaps of old apps, it depends on dynamic vs static libraries etc but some people still use Emacs 25…
I have lost power whilst updating, can be a nuisance depending in the distro, but snapshots (zfs and btrfs both work well for me) have been life saving.
Mac and windows simply don’t have a lot of quality of life features. Working with them is painful. As self a documenting systems they are fantastic though, however, when I was younger we had things called schools that served to address that gap, these have fallen out of favour in modern times.
I can’t remember the original version of the comic, what does each one of them say?
Installing old Linux applications IS a problem. They’re available only if someone repackaged them for newer distros. If not they can’t run anymore because of dependencies mismatch.
Flatpak time
NCSA Mosaic flatpak my beloved
This is a good reason for static linking. All the dependencies are built into the binary, meaning it is more portable and future proof.
We don’t need flatpak for this!
And harder to fix vulnerabilities in a linked library, and more bloat in both storage space and memory used.
Trade-offs!
I’ll take a program that isn’t getting updates anymore or simply doesn’t work in my modified environment using slightly more ram and storage over it not working at all.
I have firsthand experience with videogames made for one flavor of Linux not working on my machine due to dependency hell.
Nah, skill issue. Get gud and resolve the dependencies manually. 🤓
It’s actually an ongoing problem with closed source Linux games. Devs don’t want to update, and don’t want to open source.
A lot of the time the Windows version will play better through Proton/Wine.
You got to build them shits from source.
First step install the old ass compiler version this can be built with.
Just supply the dependencies with a chroot. That’s how we did it before distro maintainers started including the 32bit libraries into the 64bit OS.
