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Meeting everyone’s basic needs isn’t even far left. This is how far the Overton window has shifted to the right. Meeting everyone’s basic needs is left-of-centre. Far left would be state owned and controlled everything, redistribution of wealth via any means necessary, all public services fully state funded and free for all at the point of use.
Far left would be state owned and controlled everything, redistribution of wealth via any means necessary, all public services fully state funded and free for all at the point of use.
“Socialism is when the government does stuff, and communism is when the government does all the stuff. What is a mode of production?”
God I fucking hate how the capitalist authoritarian states of the last century managed to gaslight everyone into believing this shit.
I am responding according to the context of the original statement. Yeh, you could go even further left and have anarchy, but that would be utterly impractical in today’s world.
[screams in communist]
Centrism doesn’t mean that you can’t choose between democrats and republicans, it means that ideologically, you believe in a balance between capitalist ideas and socialist ideas. For example, you can believe in the Hayekian idea that the many interactions between individuals in the market is better at creating prosperity than a centralized government that distributes all goods and services. But you can also believe that the market can’t do everything on its own due to market failures like monopoly power, externalities, assymmetric information. There exists a compromise between the two that is negotiated through politics. A core necessity for this to happen is that democracy is maintained. Democracy is not maintained when elections are bought by companies.
What is happening in the US now is that politics has been taken over by the private market. No economist would have agreed with this (unless they were paid to). It is against everything that we know. This is not a left vs right stance. It’s a democracy vs autocracy stance. Autocracy can happen from both the right and left, and it doesn’t matter who.
The one thing I dislike about the idea of centrism is the idea that you can’t decide on everything because you remain agnostic about every issue. I think a much better idea to advocate for is pluralism: the idea that your opinion on specific issues is not dependent on your politcal stance. Every issue is unique and doesn’t automatically identify you with left or right. You can have different opinions on different issues.
I consider myself Centrist because I would rather eat 10 pounds of fried bugs than align myself with either absolute clown show of a party.
I’m a free agent, and the haters can’t stand that they can’t have me.
Why do you think voting for a party aligns yourself with that party?
If two people want to attempt to unalive your mother with a 50% probability that they will succeed, and you have the chance to stop only one of them, reducing the chance to 25%. Does it mean that you align with whoever you do not choose?
Voting WITH a party is not the same thing as voting for a candidate that has openly identified as a member one party or the other because that is a barrier to entry or funding avenue for them.
I know it’s hard to accept, but the entire history of both parties hasn’t been “socialist utopia vs. Nazis.” For a century the Democrats didn’t eject all the Southern racists that declared they were Dems simply to be a counterpoint to Lincoln-to-MLK-era Republicans.
Even a cursory understanding of history should make anyone distrust all political parties forever.
But please tell me more about how the party that denied us a president Bernie Sanders (I) is worth my time.
But please tell me more about how the party that denied us a president Bernie Sanders (I) is worth my time.
Like Bernie has said, it is the only realistic vehicle to carry someone like him into the White House. The way the US political system is structured your movement needs to take over an existing party instead of trying to establish its own new party from the ground up if it wants any hope of success.
agnostic are agnostic because there is no foolproof evidence basis.
with politics you can clearly see how some stances have been done and their effects. and other instances you also have a basis even in the most unclear case
just had an issue with the negative connotation implied here talking about agnosistics :D
I think we can all agree that adding religious parallels to anything is a waste of everyones time.
Americans are so far to the right that minimum wage, affordable housing, free schools and healthcare is considered “far left”. These are given and common sense in the rest of the world 🤣
Did you know theres even a subminimum wage in America? 2.13$ an hour.
In developed countries*
I’m not sure if the USA qualifies for that status
Narrator: The left did not, in fact, get everyone’s basic needs met.
Both Democrats and Republicans have been moving steadily to the right for the last 40 years. So Democrats are now where Republicans were in the 1980s: friends of banks, insurance and pharmaceutical companies. And the right has moved all the way into an insane asylum.
Whoever told you Democrats are leftists told you a big BIG lie. With some exceptions, like Bernie, and maybe AOC, most democrats are centrist, or even “economically right wing”.
Still waiting on that basic need.
Biden built entire wings onto for-profit hospitals during Covid, while ironically being against universal healthcare. Almost like his donors didn’t want it or something.
Biden is not even close to far left.
Lol that’s not the far left’s position get the fuck out of here. The first paragraph is describing center/center-left.
Yeah sure, and what is far lefts position then?
Seize the means of production.
Fuck tradition.
Fuck economics.
Kill the people who resist or disagree, or sometimes also if you just feel like killing them. For the rest, strip away basic rights so that they won’t rise up to dismantle the system.
–
As someone pointed out, perhaps things are a bit different in America, but this is how I see far left generally from Europe.
That sounds like fascism.
State-run communism as it has actually existed and fascism end up with very similar results, not the least because both believed in fast progress, dismantling traditional communities and value systems and everything being run by a strong man with an iron fist. The fascist dictator is supposedly a personification of the will of the “people” or “nation”, while the communist one is the same for the “proletariat” or, indeed, the “people”. The fact that both systems produce cleptocratic oligarchies that destroy lives of ordinary people is no accident.
This is also why the “extreme left” supposed by the OP is not extreme at all. Some just tend to confuse evend mild and moderate social democracy with genocidal communism, perhaps because their domestic political landscape is fucked up beyond recognition
It doesn’t help that the communists here usually deny the communist autocracies of the past as “not real communism, this time it’ll work bro trust me,” and when you press them on their beliefs you learn they find killing political dissidents not only acceptable, but they’re excited to line you up against the wall “the second they get a chance.”
And the milder, actually center leftists like you describe, deny the existence of Group A above outright instead of saying “yeah those guys are crazy, we’re not like them,” but then turn around and count the supposed nonexistent Group A as their compatriots against “the nazis.” (But when Group A’s genocide takes off guess who will quickly fail a purity test and be shot just after all the nazis and anarchists, yup, it’s Group B here.)
America’s left needs to realize that people like those represented by lemmy’s own tankie triad are real, are “left” not just “right playing dress up,” and are dangerous people to them as well and to normal people, not “just the nazis.” It reminds me of Trump not denouncing the KKK because they supported him, but you can disavow people who unironically support the Holodomor and want to do it again to their kulaks while also pushing for social policies that benefit the people.
yeah tankies are the real problem in america right now /s
Well I’d claim that nazis were a problem during 1945-(whenever they came back as a credible threat), even if they weren’t a credible threat for many decades. Same applies to tankies or really every other kind of … let’s say hidden infestation. It’s like mold in a house.
Getting everyone’s basic needs met is more of a centre-left ideology.
Many centre-right parties believe in things like public healthcare, because it has a net-benefit to the economy.Centrists don’t sit in the middle of every issue or make an exact 50/50 compromise on everything. That’s a really poor strawman argument from someone who clearly doesn’t understand global politics.
I guess you’re confused with people in the U.S who think having views somewhere in-between those of democrats and republicans makes you a centrist.
That U.S-specific ‘centrism’ is really just right wing politics.You are right, that centrists don’t actually sit as a 50/50 middle. But that means that “centrists” always actually side with fascists and the far right when forced to take a position. If you aren’t fully willing to confront capitalism, it means that you will side with fascism before even mild socialism.
Am I understanding you right that you are saying that all centrists will side with fascism over socialism? Because I have some news for you in that case.
Actually, it sounds like I have news for you if you don’t think that’s the case.
Centrists don’t sit in the middle of every issue or make an exact 50/50 compromise on everything.
I seriously don’t understand how fucking difficult this is to understand. It’s why I largely ignore political discussions on Reddit/Lemmy/all social media.
I don’t look at one person saying “Murdering 5 year olds is bad”, look at another person saying “Murdering 5 year olds is good!” and try to find a way where both are right.
I don’t look at one person saying “Murdering 5 year olds is bad”, look at another person saying “Murdering 5 year olds is good!” and try to find a way where both are right.
This is literally what centrists all over the world (well, the parts that show up in English-language news anyway) think about Palestine, though.
And you missed the entire point. Centrism isn’t about trying to find a perfect middle ground to every individual subject.
Of course there will be centrists that support Israel carpet bombing everything. There are other centrists that don’t support them. There are some that will support them with conditions. I know someone who is broadly centrist who thinks Israel should be dissolved entirely.
It’s not a fucking hivemind.
It’s not a hive mind, but centrist parties almost invariably have pro-Israel/“it’s complicated” positions. There will always be individual variation, but the pattern is clear.
Centrists don’t sit in the middle of every issue or make an exact 50/50 compromise on everything.
In practice, they just capitulate every time.
Far left: everyone must conform to my world view
Far right: everyone must conform to my world view
Centrist: just leave me alone
Neat fiction. Going to write a book?
“we should stop attesting, torturing and killing minorities”
centrist: leave me alone
To some extent I’m still a centrist mainly, because I think that dems have their own hypocrisies and are a little too naive. However I side more with democrats for the fact that republicans actively spew hateful, dangerous, ideals that actively put others in danger and hurt people. So I might not always agree with democrats I would most likely never agree with a republican
Thw democrats are considered “the left” in the us? As a foreigner i have always seen them as useless centrists.
Oh c’mon, I consider myself to be on the left but this is a strawman and you know it
Edit: if you want this to be more accurate then add this at the end of far left section: “at all cost. And I mean ALL cost.”. And reminder, we’re talking about FAR left here
Yeah someone needs to study the death toll of far left policies.
I’m not sure that’s fair. The “death toll of communism” has more to do with authoritarianism and political maneuvering than economic policy. Also, the people quickest to point out this fact don’t seem to be using the same measuring stick to tally up the equivalent “death toll of capitalism.”
It’s just propaganda that doesn’t hold up to serious scrutiny. All governments - including ‘centrist’ ones - have an awful lot of blood on their hands. Enough blood that I wouldn’t say there’s a significant difference due to economic policy alone.
Authorianism is pretty much how I see the far-left.
Communism, I’m still unsure about.
I’m fine with criticizing the failings of capitalism.
Uh… The farthest left ideology out there is anarchism, which is long story short the abolishment of the top-down state. That is literally the opposite of authoritarian.
That’s not even far on the left, that’s just some middle of the ground left. Real far left would be burning government buildings while having a heated discussion about the order of the colors for the flag to be raised over the rubble.
To some degree, I agree, including the tendency for infighting among leftists. It’s why I’ve never liked this meme or its variations much. On the other hand, I’ve recently seen only one side actually mobilize to attack government buildings and harm people inside, and it wasn’t the left.
Anecdotally, this week at work, I heard a self-identified rightist argue for banning gay marriage. Others sitting around their table agreed. I’ve also had the privilege of hearing we should get rid of social programs, and too many jokes about killing people they don’t like. Last time I talked to a tankie and they defended oppressive policies saying the ends justify the means, folks around us made fun of them and moved on.
I think one of these groups might not be a real issue. At the very minimum, they’re definitely not as dangerous as the other one, right now. So, is the meme a bit silly? Sure. Does that matter? I don’t feel like it does.
Please don’t reply re: proper tankie political classification. It’s beside the point, I’m using them because it seems to be what most imagine when they think “far left.”
My point, simple and plainly put is that wishing for an egalitarian society (or whatever it is called) isn’t an extremist believe (as in far-x) and most people would usually agree with it.
I just think it is just how much mass media controls most people’s perception, and how is that the key factor antagonizing with finding common ground.
I used to say that because I though “the left” was Putin and Xi Jinping
Lol, how did you get the idea Putin was a leftist?
A more real scenario.
European country bans far right candidate with conections with Russia trying to poison their democracy.
Le centrists: What about muh freedoms!?.
US Government forces Universities campuses to remove degrees of students for protesting (by threatening cutting funds) and threatens foreign students with deportation if they protest.
Edit: Just read the news that an University caved to Trump’s demands to be able to get funds. Among the demands is for police to be able to arrest students.
Le centrists: Well they were asking for it…
European countries haven’t banned the far right, the AFD, Sweden Democrats, Front Nationale, Orban, etc. are not banned and they are the results of their own political failings. Not that Putin magically conjured them forth with a wave of the hand. Playing into the meme… Germans do anti-semitism and fascism Germanly… “what are we, a bunch of Russians!”
The most popular romanian fascist candidate (who allegedly was supported by Russia) has been banned
But only after it no longer was ‘allegedly’ if I understand correctly.
The media went real quiet when it turned out not to be Russia.
Looks like it worked to fool some gullible people and simply leave them with the wrong culprit, but the right one to fit the narrative.
https://www.politico.eu/article/investigation-ties-romanian-liberals-tiktok-campaign-pro-russia-candidate-calin-georgescu/You are wrong, the article you mention states “According to the snoop.ro report, the Romanian tax agency found that the Liberals had paid for a social media campaign on TikTok through influencers and by promoting a hashtag which ended up being hijacked to benefit Georgescu instead.” It has been proven that his TikTok campaign wasn’t organic while he declared not paying for it. The fact that the liberals where the first to use a certain hashtag doesn’t mean they were involved in his campaign. He is still under investigation. Do you have any sources backing up your claim it wasn’t Russia? Politico doesn’t mention it. For others interested in reading more, here’s an explainer by Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/why-is-calin-georgescus-romanian-presidential-bid-being-blocked-2025-03-10/
Centrists in the EU don’t think like that at all. Centrists can hold strong opinions, their position isn’t just do not pick sides and play devil’s advocate at all times. As a centrist, both scenarios boil my piss.
You’ve just described two extreme situations, that any centrist would instantly notice are extreme.
Define centrism.
in america: whatever you want the strawman to be this week, usually an enemy of the left or right whenever conveinent for the echo chamber you find yourself in…
Rest of the world: someone who likes some ideas from camp a and some ideas from camp b, dislikes some ideas from camp a and some ideas on camp b and is neutral on issues from camp a and from camp b. Eg, free education, citizen pay, more renewable energy good but unchecked, uncontrollable immigration bad.
Eg, free education, citizen pay, more renewable energy good but unchecked, uncontrollable immigration bad.
That just sounds like a center-leftist with one extra step, and that’s the problem with centrism: The right has little to no good ideas, so someone who thinks critically about their positions will strongly lean left, and someone who doesn’t will strongly lean right. “Centrists” are therefore people who simply don’t care about politics and not subscribers to a coherent political ideology.
I think people who call Republicans and Democrats the same are just in love with their own need to rant. When they’re elderly they’ll walk around shouting at trees.
The far left and far right are both bad. If in doubt, look at any country which has gone down either path.
