That says nothing about attacks of NATO members on NATO members and there are precedents like Turkey taking over and occupying half of Cyprus leading to war between members Greece and Turkey where the other useless members did absolutely nothing because the standard interpretation is that NATO doesn’t protect members from other members. Stop making up theories and spreading misinformation.
Failed gotcha talking point considering that the main bulk of western Zionists are rabidly anti-LGBT, anti-reproductive rights, anti-evolution Christian fanatics who support Israel because they low key believe the existence of Israel is integral to the second coming. Also, not coincidentally the exact same crowd that voted in all the presidents who sponsored groups like Al Qaeda to push against the communist government of Afghanistan and other communist, socialist and secular movements in the region because birds of a feather work together and religious fanatics apparently get along when they need to and then betray each other because morals don’t count if god is supposedly always on your side amirite.
Honestly you can’t even meaningfully summarize just the 20th century and late 19th in a single comment. Unleashing Pinkertons on strikers for example. Prez Wilson mass deporting Italians because they were anarchists and socialists while also designing little ethnostates after WWI and creating the excuse for WWII.
But that’s where most would agree. If I said that even the liberal-leaning (not leftist, liberal) dominant discourse via mass media constantly frames US politics in terms of “stupidity” i.e. innate unchanging characteristics and not criminally underfunded public education that makes the working class more easily manipulated by bougie populists on both sides then I’m not sure most people would either get or want to admit that even the liberal dominant norms are lowkey eugenicist race science nazi shit but without calling it explicitly eugenics.
But it’s a thing that once you see it you can’t unsee it.
Yeah okay sure, when the US was putting down mass insurrections in Detroit etc with the National Guard and there was armed combat in the streets (1960s) the US wasn’t a fascist hellhole officially. Or the entire period until the 1965 Voting Act and the multiple Civil Rights Acts (didn’t end in the 60s) that it took for “constitutional rights” to be applied to all residents because simply being a resident didn’t make you a full citizen in the “constitutional republic” if you didn’t have the right skin tone, that also wasn’t officially a fascist hellhole either.
What else? Henry Ford publishing a ton of dodgy anti-Semitic literature in the 1920s and inspiring Hitler and the Euro OG fascists? Not officially fascist hellhole enough.
Blood quantum laws, one drop rules, eugenics programs etc that also directly inspired the Nazis but were often rejected for being too extreme for them (the Nuremberg blood laws that determined Jewish ancestry are significantly more lenient than US one drop laws)? Not officially fascist hellhole.
Yeah, USA was straight up Weimar Republic or maybe the USSR or maybe anarchist Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War until Trump won in 2016.
Can people start pushing back against this self-serving center-lib romantic bs already? Because simply put, if it all got ruined because of Trump then come right out and say openly that you’re fine with everything that came before because it mostly affected natives, blacks and foreigners but not US WASPs. Or I don’t know, relax because saying it’s always been a total hellhole doesn’t mean you support Trump.
Maybe I should mention that this is Cold War era propaganda about USA representing “freedom and democracy” (the free world bs) vs totalitarianism etc back during the time segregation and putting people in jail for sodomy were supposedly freedom loving acts?
Are anyone here fine with USA having nuclear weapons? A 200 year old group of rogue British colonies founded on arguably the greatest genocide in human history, slavery, Christian fundamentalism and white supremacy that only very recently stopped being a segregated apartheid state (nominally) that has been full blown imperialist and colonialist for a century and took the place that the British Empire used to have on the global stage, armed with nuclear weapons?
Ignore for a second how the US sponsored colony is reacting to the consequences of their own attacks. Are anyone here fine with the USA having nuclear weapons after rushing to use them on civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the only nuclear weapons armed country that has ever used them in combat in the past 80 years?
If you are, then please explain.
If you aren’t, then please explain what you propose to do to avoid the USA having nuclear weapons.
(USA is white rule South Africa on crack, steroids and has been doing it for just as much time. That is the real context and not vibes and “Iran bad”. Maybe if the Euros didn’t rush to cut up the territories of the former Ottoman Empire to make colonies there wouldn’t be a need for nationalist “dictatorships” in the region, a normal and justified byproduct of constant western attempts to install puppet states in western designed Frankenstein countries with very different ethnic and religious groups (including western sponsored religious fanatic groups) all lumped together because some Brits and French agreed about some imaginary borders in the 1920s. You can’t have a democracy when American alphabet soup agencies keep trying to erode it to steal your resources. But let’s ask the western libs about their massive censorship against Russian media after the Ukraine thing and how tolerant they are to “Russian election interference” and other western hysterias to see the hilarious double standards.)
Do you trust the NSA, ICANN, IANA (all headquartered in the USA) etc and that SSL/TLS cert authorities haven’t been backdoored to hell and back? (Probably a decade+ since top level cert authorities were found to be backdoored but who cares amirite.)
NATO members can’t interfere in conflicts between NATO members, only in conflicts between NATO and non-NATO. NATO is a cold war relic designed to be used against the Warsaw Pact countries, not some universal defense and peace instrument. Right now it’s either useless or a tool for western imperialism.
Stay mad b1tch.
Your claim was this, “supported” by some corporate unpublished preprint (which is really funny considering you have the nerve to ask for citations):
It can’t. It just fucking can’t. We’re all pretending it does, but it fundamentally can’t.
You don’t need a citation for LLMs being able to “reason for code”, doubting AI coding abilities is delusional online yapping considering how documented it is since its deployed all over the place so how about you prove that being able to write code and do things like control flow, conditionals etc can be done without reason. Try doing that instead of spamming incoherent replies.
Nobody cares if you’re a professional vibe coder all of a sudden, if you can’t code without copilot maybe you shouldn’t have an opinion based on Apple’s “research”.
But until then, are Palantir’s AIs fundamentally incapable of reasoning? Yes or no? None of you anti-AI warriors are clear, should we not worry about corporate AI surveillance because apparently AI isn’t really “I” or not? Simple question, but maybe ask copilot for help. But you seem bugged when it comes to corporate propaganda contradictions, it’s really interesting.
I never said its going to replace teachers or that it “stores context” but your sloppily googled preprints to support your “fundamentally can’t reason” statement were demonstrably garbage. You didn’t say even once “show me it’s close” but you think you said several times. Either your reading comprehension is worse than an LLM and you wildly confabulate, which means an LLM could replace you or you’re a bot. Anyway, so far you proved nothing and already said they can write code, it’s a non trivial cognitive task that you can’t perform without several higher order abilities so cope and seethe I guess.
So, what about Palantir AI? Is that also “not close”? Why are you avoiding surveillance AI? They’re both neural networks. Some are LLMs.
You’re less coherent than a broken LLM lol. You made the claim that transformer-based AIs are fundamentally incapable of reasoning or something vague like that using gimmicky af “I tricked the chatbot into getting confused therefore it can’t think” unpublished preprints (while asking for peer review). Why would I need to prove something? LLMs can write code, that’s an undeniable demonstration that they understand abstract logic fairly well that can’t be faked using probability and it would be a complete waste of time to explain it to anyone who is either having issues with cognitive dissonance or less often may be intentionally trying to spread misinformation.
Are the AIs developed by Palantir “fundamentally incapable” of their demonstrated effectiveness or not? It’s a pretty valid question when we’re already surveilled by them but some people like you indirectly suggest that this can’t be happening. Should people not care about predictive policing?
How about the industrial control AIs that you “critics” never mention, do power grid controllers fake it? You may need to tell Siemens, they’re not aware their deployed systems work. And while on that, we shouldn’t be concerned about monopolies controlling public infrastructure with closed source AI models because they’re “fundamentally incapable” to operate?
I don’t know, maybe this “AI skepticism” thing is lowkey intentional industry misdirection and most of you fell for it?
Another unpublished preprint that hasn’t published peer review? Funny how that somehow doesn’t matter when something seemingly supports your talking points. Too bad it doesn’t exactly mean what you want it to mean.
“Logical operations and definitions” = Booleans and propositional logic formalisms. You don’t do that either because humans don’t think like that but I’m not surprised you’d avoid mentioning the context and go for the kinda over the top and easy to misunderstand conclusion.
It’s really interesting how you get people constantly doubling down on specifically chatbots being useless citing random things from google but somehow Palantir finds great usage in their AIs for mass surveillance and policing. What’s the talking point there, that they’re too dumb to operate and that nobody should worry?
You made huge claims using a non peer reviewed preprint with garbage statistics and abysmal experimental design where they put together 21 bikes and 4 race cars to bury openAI flagship models under the group trend and go to the press with it. I’m not going to go over all the flaws but all the performance drops happen when they spam the model with the same prompt several times and then suddenly add or remove information, while using greedy decoding which will cause artificial averaging artifacts. It’s context poisoning with extra steps i.e. not logic testing but prompt hacking.
This is Apple (that is falling behind in its AI research) attacking a competitor with fake FUD and doesn’t even count as research, which you’d know if you looked it up and saw you know, opinions of peers.
You’re just protecting an entrenched belief based on corporate slop so what would you do with peer reviewed anything? You didn’t bother to check the one you posted yourself.
Or you post corporate slop on purpose and now trying to turn the conversation away from that. Usually the case when someone conveniently bypasses absolutely all your arguments lol.
And here’s experimental verification that humans lack formal reasoning when sentences don’t precisely spell it out for them: all the models they tested except chatGPT4 and o1 variants are from 27B and below, all the way to Phi-3 which is an SLM, a small language model with only 3.8B parameters. ChatGPT4 has 1.8T parameters.
1.8 trillion > 3.8 billion
ChatGPT4’s performance difference (accuracy drop) with regular benchmarks was a whooping -0.3 versus Mistral 7B -9.2 drop.
Yes there were massive differences. No, they didn’t show significance because they barely did any real stats. The models I suggested you try for yourself are not included in the test and the ones they did use are known to have significant limitations. Intellectual honesty would require reading the actual “study” though instead of doubling down.
Maybe consider the possibility that a. STEMlords in general may know how to do benchmarks but not cognitive testing type testing or how to use statistical methods from that field b. this study being an example of a few “I’m just messing around trying to confuse LLMs with sneaky prompts instead of doing real research because I need a publication without work” type of study, equivalent to students making chatGPT do their homework c. 3.8B models = the size in bytes is between 1.8 and 2.2 gigabytes d. not that “peer review” is required for criticism lol but uh, that’s a preprint on arxiv, the “study” itself hasn’t been peer reviewed or properly published anywhere (how many months are there between October 2024 to May 2025?) e. showing some qualitative difference between quantitatively different things without showing p and using weights is garbage statistics f. you can try the experiment yourself because the models I suggested have visible Chain of Thought and you’ll see if and over what they get confused about g. when there are graded performance differences with several models reliably not getting confused at least more than half the time but you say “fundamentally can’t reason” you may be fundamentally misunderstanding what the word means
Need more clarifications instead of reading the study or performing basic fun experiments? At least be intellectually curious or something.
The faulty logic was supported by a previous study from 2019
This directly applies to the human journalist, studies on other models 6 years ago are pretty much irrelevant and this one apparently tested very small distilled ones that you can run on consumer hardware at home (Llama3 8B lol).
Anyway this study seems trash if their conclusion is that small and fine-tuned models (user compliance includes not suspecting intentionally wrong prompts) failing to account for human misdirection somehow means “no evidence of formal reasoning”. Which means using formal logic and formal operations and not reasoning in general, we use informal reasoning for the vast majority of what we do daily and we also rely on “sophisticated pattern matching” lmao, it’s called cognitive heuristics. Kahneman won the Nobel prize for recognizing type 1 and type 2 thinking in humans.
Why don’t you go repeat the experiment yourself on huggingface (accounts are free, over ten models to test, actually many are the same ones the study used) and see what actually happens? Try it on model chains that have a reasoning model like R1 and Qwant and just see for yourself and report back. It would be intellectually honest to verify things since we’re talking about critical thinking in here.
Oh add a control group here, a comparison with average human performance to see what the really funny but hidden part is. Pro-tip: CS STEMlords catastrophically suck when larping being cognitive scientists.
Don’t tell them it applies pretty damn perfectly to journalism and online commentators that both heavily shape their worldview even indirectly (because even if you don’t believe it your homies will and you get peer pressured) because they’ll go into a loop.
Yeah I’m angry because I’d rather my loved ones at the very least talk to a chatbot that will argue with them that “they matter” and give them a hotline or a site if they’re in some moment of despair and nobody is available or they don’t want to talk to people instead of avoiding trying because of scripted incoherent criticism like stolen art slopslopslop Elon Musk techbro privacy blah blah and ending up doing it because nothing will delay them or contradict their suicidal intent.
It’s not like you don’t get this but following the social media norm and being monke hear monke say all the way to no empathy levels seems more important. That’s way more dangerous but we don’t talk about humans doing that or being vulnerable to that I guess.
You don’t actually know what you’re talking about but like many others in here you put this over the top anti-AI current thing sentiment above everything including simple awareness that you don’t know anything. You clearly haven’t interacted with many therapists and medical professionals in general as a non-patient if you think they’re guaranteed to respect privacy. They’re supposed to but off the record and among friends plenty of them yap about everything. They’re often obligated to report patients in case of self harm etc which can get them involuntarily sectioned, and the patients may have repercussions from that for years like job loss, healthcare costs, homelessness, legal restrictions, stigma etc.
There’s nothing contrived or extemely rare about mental health emergencies and they don’t need to be “emergencies” the way you understand it because many people are undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for years, with very high symptom severity and episodes lasting for months and chronically barely coping. Someone may be in any big city and won’t change a thing, hospitals and doctors don’t have magic pills that automatically cure mental illness assuming that patients have insight (not necessarily present during episodes of many disorders) or awareness that they have some mental illness and aren’t just sad etc (because mental health awareness is in the gutter, example: your pretentious incredulity here). Also assuming they have friends available or that they even feel comfortable enough to talk about what bothers them to people they’re acquainted with.
Some LLM may actually end up convincing them or informing them that they do have medical issues that need to be seen as such. Suicidal ideation may be present for years but active suicidal intent (the state in which people actually do it) rarely lasts more than 30 minutes or a few hours at worst and it’s highly impulsive in nature. Wtf would you or “friends” do in this case? Do you know any techniques to calm people down during episodes? Even unspecialized LLMs have latent knowledge of these things so there’s a good chance they’ll end up getting life saving advice as opposed to just doing it or interacting with humans who default to interpreting it as “attention seeking” and becoming even more convinced that they should go ahead with it because nobody cares.
This holier than thou anti-AI bs had some point when it was about VLMs training on scraped art but some of you echo chamber critters turned it into some imaginary high moral prerogative that even turns off your empathy for anyone using AI even in use cases where it may save lives. Its some terminally online “morality” where supposedly “there is no excuse for the sin of using AI” and just echo chamber boosted reddit brainworms and fully performative unless all of you use fully ethical cobalt-free smartphones so you’re not implicitly gaining convenience from the six million victims of the Congo cobalt wars so far, you never use any services on AWS and magically avoid all megadatacenters etc. Touch grass jfc.
And besides this it’s not like there’s no labour aristocracy that primarily gains from this while other working class groups get much less and get ideologically gaslit about not being members of some potentially either fully corrupt or workerist union with zero radical ultimate aims.
Even the global North(west) contains highly exploited groups with only a minority getting the benefits.
More like “Trust me bro I’m on the Iran desk at Eglin Airforce Base.” There are Iranians yapping on Facebook etc, even the critical ones don’t use US State Department lingo to refer to the Iranian government like “the mullahs” lol.