• PugJesus@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 days ago

    Israel, Russia, and Ukraine sure seem to think so. None are producing enough munitions domestically to satisfy themselves.

    In the case of Russia and Ukraine, the reason they need to produce more munitions is to prevent the opposition from having the advantage in the war. If both sides were totally stripped of munitions by tomorrow, you wouldn’t see a cessation of the war, you’d see a continuation of the war simply with less advanced tools, such as in the civil war in Sudan. And Russia has already demonstrated that it has no shortage of men who are willing to murder people with knives and sledgehammers.

    Don’t really know what you think “No more munitions!” is going to achieve here. Certainly don’t know what shunning the Western MIC is going to do here, except expose more Ukrainians to Russian genocide.

    Israel isn’t producing enough munitions to satisfy itself because it knows it doesn’t have to when the US is willing to subsidize their genocide.

    Less weapons made still means less weapon used.

    No, it means less of that particular weapon used.

    • Jtotheb@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      2 days ago

      So do you work for a defense contractor or do you just have great respect for the act of killing in general

      • PugJesus@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 days ago

        Sorry for having the radical idea that mass violence predates specialized weapons industries. Or the radical idea that countries should be allowed to defend themselves against genocidal aggressors. Whichever of the two you’re objecting to.

        • Jtotheb@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          2 days ago

          It is pretty radical to argue that a small contingent of Zionist Israelis would be successfully eradicating the people of Palestine if both sides just had sticks, so the U.S. should just keep manufacturing and selling MK-84 bombs. Or we can talk about how absurd a claim it is that the arms industry is looking out for the little guy—you know, the group that can pay for less of their product? Thank god for arms manufacturers—that’s probably what Uyghurs think when they’re stopped at checkpoints by military police

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            2 days ago

            It is pretty radical to argue that a small contingent of Zionist Israelis would be successfully eradicating the people of Palestine if both sides just had sticks, so the U.S. should just keep manufacturing and selling MK-84 bombs.

            Yes, a small contingent of some half-a-million Israeli soldiers and reservists obviously wouldn’t be able to shoot any Palestinians if the US wasn’t supplying them. This is why nowhere on earth does genocide happen, save when America is supplying someone involved.

            Or we can talk about how absurd a claim it is that the arms industry is looking out for the little guy

            lmao

            Not even trying, are you?

            Thank god for arms manufacturers—that’s probably what Uyghurs think when they’re stopped at checkpoints by military police

            “If only they didn’t have stealth jets created by the massive and advanced Chinese defense industry” probably isn’t what goes through the minds of most Uyghurs when stopped by military police.

            • Jtotheb@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              2 days ago

              Yeah, that’s a pretty pointless response on the Uyghur front and I don’t think we’re making progress on the “how easily is the genocide carried out” front so let’s just drop everything else and hone in here:

              China’s comprehensive surveillance system is what makes tracking the movements of Uyghurs possible. It is what has made detaining and killing them so easy. So the people that made that system possible are responsible. Please explain how actually it’s nobody’s fault because things just happen.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                ·
                edit-2
                2 days ago

                Yeah, that’s a pretty pointless response on the Uyghur front

                “I wish I was being beaten to death with a homemade truncheon, instead of a mass-produced one”?

                China’s comprehensive surveillance system is what makes tracking the movements of Uyghurs possible. It is what has made detaining and killing them so easy. So the people that made that system possible are responsible. Please explain how actually it’s nobody’s fault because things just happen.

                You’re absolutely right. Everyone who makes computers for any company which sells to China is going to hell.

                • Jtotheb@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  2 days ago

                  I’m sure it would be interesting to talk to you in some other set of circumstances—I think you have twice now made a salient point about how seemingly innocent industries end up fueling these genocides, just now and elsewhere regarding steel manufacturing—but under these circumstances it’s like pulling teeth. You are arguing that advanced weaponry does not increase bloodshed, which I disagree with, and you are avoiding any discussion of responsibility, which I think is a pretty natural impulse within all of us but it really fucking matters. I hope at least that you enjoyed interpreting everyone’s critiques in the worst possible light.

                  • PugJesus@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    2 days ago

                    You are arguing that advanced weaponry does not increase bloodshed, which I disagree with,

                    Man, go on and look at the bloodiest conflicts in world history. Tell me what advanced modern tools they were waged with. Tell me what advanced technology enabled Pol Pot to stick the heads of dissidents on wooden stakes and murder some 25% of the entire population.

                    and you are avoiding any discussion of responsibility, which I think is a pretty natural impulse within all of us but it really fucking matters.

                    No, I’m not avoiding a discussion of responsibility. I’m pointing out that a double-standard for responsibility is being used. You want the defense industry to be the scapegoat to avoid having to confront that every major industry that does international business is neck-deep in horrific shit by the standard of “You sell it, you’re responsible for what it’s used for”. You can try to avoid looking in the mirror by pointing fingers, but it’s a very easy tactic to recognize. “Weapons evil” is an easy sell on an emotional level, but you don’t want to confront that it doesn’t actually hold up as a coherent argument.