How on Earth is it not settler colonialism when Russia engages in a prolonged campaign of trying to russify the Ukranian language, heavily propogandizing those in border regions to either get them to apply for, or either grant them Russian passports/citizenship, then they claim the rightful borders have moved, then invade and capture those border areas (and others), and then emgage in ethnic cleansing within those border areas?
Please, explain to me how that isn’t settler colonialism, just with a few initial, semi-novel/semi-uncommon extra steps?
You don’t read books or theory about colonialism, you don’t look at the news or the current event, you give vibe based “analysis” of the situation, and you want me to explain the entirety of colonialism from beginning to end just because your lazy ass won’t read Frantz Fanon.
Ok so I actually have a degree in Poli Sci and another degree in Econ, I have read quite a lot of theory, often got into arguments with my NeoLiberal professors over things like the IMF, WorldBank, how to evaluate systemic risk in financial markets, the idea of bailing out Wall Street during the GFC instead of jailing them all as corrupt, as Iceland did, once got a bad mark on a paper about conflict goods because my PoliSci prof simply refused to acknowledge that US Army troops were guarding opium farms in Afghanistan, independently sought out and studied modern Marxist economists outside of the scope of course work, etc etc.
I want you to explain, in a couple sentences, or paragraphs if you need to… how the situation I described above either is not settler colonialism, or is a wildly innacurate mischaracterization of the situation, or some mix of both.
Not just yell ‘read theory!’ at me and give me an author name.
I do not need the entire concept of settler colonialism explained to me. I am familiar with it.
If you’ve read and understood Fanon, you should be able to… you know, make that argument.
Succinctly.
In your own words.
Otherwise you’re just a pretentious hipster, arrogantly name dropping authors and scoffing.
Settler colonialism a form of imperialism (theft of land, labor and natural resources of a weaker country by a stronger one), where the stronger country sets up a military garrison, and evicts or enslaves the local population. This is border conflict to halt the ever-eastward march of NATO.
The accusations of “russifying the ukrainian language” is pure projection; its the banderites who (with NATO help, Obama bragged about this one) couped Ukraine in 2014 (and who were killing thousands of civilians in the donbass) that have been attempting to make spoken russian illegal in the country. They’ve also been reviving nazi collaborators and building monuments to them as fast as they can.
It was the Bolsheviks (Stalin especially) who strongly supported the creation of a Ukrainian state, as it had a distinct national, lingual, and cultural character, while the western nations were opposed to Ukrainian sovereignty (The fascist dictatorhips of the 30s were essentially at war with all slavic peoples). Modern Russia wants to preserve Ukraine as a buffer state (as it was before 2014). There are many ppl more knowledgeable on lemmygrad and hexbear, that could give you a long background on this conflict.
The Russians have occupied foreign land, commited vast numbers of warcrimes by indiscriminately blowing the shit out of civillian areas at a scale not seen in the region since WW2, and while perhaps not literally enslaving the remaining Ukranian population, they are forcibly destroying the language culture and identity of Ukranians in occupied territories, and they are settling Russian nationals in occupied areas.
That’s settler colonialism.
Move into an area, claim control over it, kill those who resist strongly, kill a bunch of civillians in the take over process, culturally erase and assimilate the remaining local population, and then transplant a bunch of your own citzens from elsewhere into your new territory to make it yours.
Your comment argues against Russia being classic imperialists… which is not the same thing as expansionist settler colonialism.
The two can and often do go hand in hand… but they are not the same thing.
So basically, I can end this here, the vast majority of your reply is off topic.
…
But!
You make some statements and claims I find to be wild, so I'll address them in this expandable section.
Efforts to russify the Ukranian language and population are not ‘projection’, they were Soviet policy.
…
Yes, there have been and still are fascist Ukranian paramilitary and official military units and actions, and they did do horrible things in Eastern Ukraine, I do not deny that.
2014 being a Banderite coup though?
That’s a bit of a stretch.
It had very significant popular support from far too many people to be reasonably described as such.
That’d be like saying the recent protests against Trump, millions of Americans all over the country… well they’re actually just a Walmart coup because a wealthy Walmart heir paid for a bunch of ads.
The last part is true, the first part is a laughable mischaracterization, to imply that 10+ million Americans are actually staunchly pro Walmart-regime and all of its favored policies.
…
But this is quibbling over semantic phrasing.
Sure, active, violent fascists existed and still exist in Ukraine.
… but the same goes for Russia, to a much greater extent… as modern Russia… is fascist.
Soviet Union collapsed, got shock doctrined into advanced stage capitalism, which also collapsed very fast, and is now led by a chauvanistic patriarchichal strong man dear leader who hates queers and feminists, rules in close collaboration with an oligarchichal elite, which cracks down on free speech, outright runs the media, and is absurdly jingoistic and corrupt, and manipulates elections and basically routinely openly assasinates / imprisons dissidents and political rivals that become too much of a threat… oh right and they also incoperate the religion into the state.
I think Ukraine may be a teensy weensy bit less fascist than Russia on the whole.
Just a tad.
Telling me a fascist nation state is justified invading another flawed democracy that has significant but smaller numbers of fascists in that flawed nation state… is justified… because the small number of fascists are worse than the entire militarized fascist nation state, that has had the same strongman leader for 20 years, who has total control over the entire military of that state… this is like an obviously farsical joke, that this is somehow morally good or justifiable.
…
The US better invade Alberta to … stamp out Trump cult members there, with indiscriminate civillian casualties and then an annexation of Alberta.
???
The actual Nazis should have invaded Spain to uh… yeah, kill all the bad guy Carlistas and Francoistas, with indiscriminate civllian casualties, and then turn most of Spain into Lebensraum: Deutschland Westen.
???
Japan should have invaded China to… wipe out all of Kai-Shek’s forces, with indiscriminate civillian casualties, to establish Beijing down to Hong Kong as a Japanese colony instead of a Western one.
???
Does self determination just not factor into your worldview?
Do you just not believe that a flawed system capable of some level of democratic representatiom… is preferable to that which offers none?
…
Finally, if the idea here is that the ends justify the means, and the ends are: Stop NATO expansionism… well, that’s arguably massively failed, as Europe is now militarily preparing itself to be able to defend against Russia without the US.
Finland and Sweden joined NATO after Russia did this thing that was supposed to produce the opposite result.
In simple words, in colonialism a country invades another country in the aim of taking its resources or exploiting and descriminating against its population or in the case of settler colonialism wiping them out and replacing them, what Russia has done is use military power to invade an area not controlled by it to change their ruling class, they want to make the population have a Russian citizenship and for the land to be under the map of Russia.
A citizen of an eastern Oblast of Ukraine after Russia takes over will still be the same as he was earlier, just now with a Russian citizenship. Just like how people in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens before 2014, but after they became Russian citizens, and Crimea is treated as a part of Russia (although not recognized by a lot of countries).
A Palestinian citizen after the colonialism of Palestine now lives either abroad or in a concentration camp or is dead.
In simple words, in colonialism a country invades another country
Ok, Russia has done that.
in the aim of taking its resources or exploiting and descriminating against its population
Ok, this has happened as well, unless you somehow think Russia… isn’t going to use the territory it has captured… not like Crimea is a super strategically important port location or anything … not like any agriculture or mining happens in eastern Ukraine…
…discrimination against the local population has been rampant with warcrimes galore against civillians, from remote arty/missile strikes to naval bombardment to executing civillians to kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to ‘you are Russian now’ foster family placement programs…
but uh sure. no mass concentration camps. just mass graves and mass obliteration of civillian areas. that you’ll be shot if you try to flee westward from. so you better act like you’re russian now.
nope no forced cultural assimilation here, no sir.
what Russia has done is use military power to invade an area not controlled by it to change their ruling class
Ah, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
they want to make the population have a Russian citizenship and for the land to be under the map of Russia.
Yes that’s just general conquest.
A citizen of an eastern Oblast of Ukraine after Russia takes over will still be the same as he was earlier, just now with a Russian citizenship.
This was already the case, in large numbers, before the invasion.
Just like how people in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens before 2014, but after they became Russian citizens, and Crimea is treated as a part of Russia (although not recognized by a lot of countries).
Yes, just like when Rome conquered somewhere, they placed either literally their own, or friendly but subserservient local puppets at the top of the society, declared the whole territory part of Rome.
You are also leaving out the part when Russia has hassively encouraged settlement of Russian nationals into Crimea and other eastern Oblasts.
You know, kinda like with Israel and the West Bank.
Settlers. Moving into a colonized area. Area gained by force of arms.
Settler colonialism.
… you can do a settler colonialism either with or without enslaving or forcibly assimilating the mainstay local population.
In America, we just killed most of them. Did a bit of the kidnapping and forced culturalization of children too.
Well that certainly is a way to convince someone of something; insult them and then other them, and use that othering as the explanation why they just aren’t capable of understanding complicated concepts.
tankies aren’t usually ones for rationalism or any sort of debate/dialectic, i sincerely doubt you’ll get a response bc he knows he’s gonna get trounced on and revealed as an idiot the moment he attempts to do it.
can’t blame you tho, I like playing around with it sometimes too. it’s like, the opposite of trolling imo. you just hit them with stone-cold rigor and they troll themselves out of frustration lmao.
How on Earth is it not settler colonialism when Russia engages in a prolonged campaign of trying to russify the Ukranian language, heavily propogandizing those in border regions to either get them to apply for, or either grant them Russian passports/citizenship, then they claim the rightful borders have moved, then invade and capture those border areas (and others), and then emgage in ethnic cleansing within those border areas?
Please, explain to me how that isn’t settler colonialism, just with a few initial, semi-novel/semi-uncommon extra steps?
you don’t know what is settler colonialism and you don’t know what is reality, gtfo don’t compare Palestine to Ukraine
Would you care to explain anything, or do you just want to have a hissy fit?
You don’t read books or theory about colonialism, you don’t look at the news or the current event, you give vibe based “analysis” of the situation, and you want me to explain the entirety of colonialism from beginning to end just because your lazy ass won’t read Frantz Fanon.
Ok so I actually have a degree in Poli Sci and another degree in Econ, I have read quite a lot of theory, often got into arguments with my NeoLiberal professors over things like the IMF, WorldBank, how to evaluate systemic risk in financial markets, the idea of bailing out Wall Street during the GFC instead of jailing them all as corrupt, as Iceland did, once got a bad mark on a paper about conflict goods because my PoliSci prof simply refused to acknowledge that US Army troops were guarding opium farms in Afghanistan, independently sought out and studied modern Marxist economists outside of the scope of course work, etc etc.
I want you to explain, in a couple sentences, or paragraphs if you need to… how the situation I described above either is not settler colonialism, or is a wildly innacurate mischaracterization of the situation, or some mix of both.
Not just yell ‘read theory!’ at me and give me an author name.
I do not need the entire concept of settler colonialism explained to me. I am familiar with it.
If you’ve read and understood Fanon, you should be able to… you know, make that argument.
Succinctly.
In your own words.
Otherwise you’re just a pretentious hipster, arrogantly name dropping authors and scoffing.
You’re trying to start an appeal to authority here while clearly being full of shit 😂 it’s giving me third party embarrassment.
Settler colonialism a form of imperialism (theft of land, labor and natural resources of a weaker country by a stronger one), where the stronger country sets up a military garrison, and evicts or enslaves the local population. This is border conflict to halt the ever-eastward march of NATO.
The accusations of “russifying the ukrainian language” is pure projection; its the banderites who (with NATO help, Obama bragged about this one) couped Ukraine in 2014 (and who were killing thousands of civilians in the donbass) that have been attempting to make spoken russian illegal in the country. They’ve also been reviving nazi collaborators and building monuments to them as fast as they can.
It was the Bolsheviks (Stalin especially) who strongly supported the creation of a Ukrainian state, as it had a distinct national, lingual, and cultural character, while the western nations were opposed to Ukrainian sovereignty (The fascist dictatorhips of the 30s were essentially at war with all slavic peoples). Modern Russia wants to preserve Ukraine as a buffer state (as it was before 2014). There are many ppl more knowledgeable on lemmygrad and hexbear, that could give you a long background on this conflict.
Modern imperialism (usually) takes a different form from classical colonialism, but even with that definition, Russia can’t be called imperialist as it fits none of the traits.
The Russians have occupied foreign land, commited vast numbers of warcrimes by indiscriminately blowing the shit out of civillian areas at a scale not seen in the region since WW2, and while perhaps not literally enslaving the remaining Ukranian population, they are forcibly destroying the language culture and identity of Ukranians in occupied territories, and they are settling Russian nationals in occupied areas.
That’s settler colonialism.
Move into an area, claim control over it, kill those who resist strongly, kill a bunch of civillians in the take over process, culturally erase and assimilate the remaining local population, and then transplant a bunch of your own citzens from elsewhere into your new territory to make it yours.
Your comment argues against Russia being classic imperialists… which is not the same thing as expansionist settler colonialism.
The two can and often do go hand in hand… but they are not the same thing.
So basically, I can end this here, the vast majority of your reply is off topic.
…
But!
You make some statements and claims I find to be wild, so I'll address them in this expandable section.
Efforts to russify the Ukranian language and population are not ‘projection’, they were Soviet policy.
…
Yes, there have been and still are fascist Ukranian paramilitary and official military units and actions, and they did do horrible things in Eastern Ukraine, I do not deny that.
2014 being a Banderite coup though?
That’s a bit of a stretch.
It had very significant popular support from far too many people to be reasonably described as such.
That’d be like saying the recent protests against Trump, millions of Americans all over the country… well they’re actually just a Walmart coup because a wealthy Walmart heir paid for a bunch of ads.
The last part is true, the first part is a laughable mischaracterization, to imply that 10+ million Americans are actually staunchly pro Walmart-regime and all of its favored policies.
…
But this is quibbling over semantic phrasing.
Sure, active, violent fascists existed and still exist in Ukraine.
… but the same goes for Russia, to a much greater extent… as modern Russia… is fascist.
Soviet Union collapsed, got shock doctrined into advanced stage capitalism, which also collapsed very fast, and is now led by a chauvanistic patriarchichal strong man dear leader who hates queers and feminists, rules in close collaboration with an oligarchichal elite, which cracks down on free speech, outright runs the media, and is absurdly jingoistic and corrupt, and manipulates elections and basically routinely openly assasinates / imprisons dissidents and political rivals that become too much of a threat… oh right and they also incoperate the religion into the state.
I think Ukraine may be a teensy weensy bit less fascist than Russia on the whole.
Just a tad.
Telling me a fascist nation state is justified invading another flawed democracy that has significant but smaller numbers of fascists in that flawed nation state… is justified… because the small number of fascists are worse than the entire militarized fascist nation state, that has had the same strongman leader for 20 years, who has total control over the entire military of that state… this is like an obviously farsical joke, that this is somehow morally good or justifiable.
…
The US better invade Alberta to … stamp out Trump cult members there, with indiscriminate civillian casualties and then an annexation of Alberta.
???
The actual Nazis should have invaded Spain to uh… yeah, kill all the bad guy Carlistas and Francoistas, with indiscriminate civllian casualties, and then turn most of Spain into Lebensraum: Deutschland Westen.
???
Japan should have invaded China to… wipe out all of Kai-Shek’s forces, with indiscriminate civillian casualties, to establish Beijing down to Hong Kong as a Japanese colony instead of a Western one.
???
Does self determination just not factor into your worldview?
Do you just not believe that a flawed system capable of some level of democratic representatiom… is preferable to that which offers none?
…
Finally, if the idea here is that the ends justify the means, and the ends are: Stop NATO expansionism… well, that’s arguably massively failed, as Europe is now militarily preparing itself to be able to defend against Russia without the US.
Finland and Sweden joined NATO after Russia did this thing that was supposed to produce the opposite result.
Previously. Previously. Previously.
In simple words, in colonialism a country invades another country in the aim of taking its resources or exploiting and descriminating against its population or in the case of settler colonialism wiping them out and replacing them, what Russia has done is use military power to invade an area not controlled by it to change their ruling class, they want to make the population have a Russian citizenship and for the land to be under the map of Russia.
A citizen of an eastern Oblast of Ukraine after Russia takes over will still be the same as he was earlier, just now with a Russian citizenship. Just like how people in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens before 2014, but after they became Russian citizens, and Crimea is treated as a part of Russia (although not recognized by a lot of countries).
A Palestinian citizen after the colonialism of Palestine now lives either abroad or in a concentration camp or is dead.
Completely different situations
Ok, Russia has done that.
Ok, this has happened as well, unless you somehow think Russia… isn’t going to use the territory it has captured… not like Crimea is a super strategically important port location or anything … not like any agriculture or mining happens in eastern Ukraine…
…discrimination against the local population has been rampant with warcrimes galore against civillians, from remote arty/missile strikes to naval bombardment to executing civillians to kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to ‘you are Russian now’ foster family placement programs…
but uh sure. no mass concentration camps. just mass graves and mass obliteration of civillian areas. that you’ll be shot if you try to flee westward from. so you better act like you’re russian now.
nope no forced cultural assimilation here, no sir.
Ah, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
Yes that’s just general conquest.
This was already the case, in large numbers, before the invasion.
Yes, just like when Rome conquered somewhere, they placed either literally their own, or friendly but subserservient local puppets at the top of the society, declared the whole territory part of Rome.
You are also leaving out the part when Russia has hassively encouraged settlement of Russian nationals into Crimea and other eastern Oblasts.
You know, kinda like with Israel and the West Bank.
Settlers. Moving into a colonized area. Area gained by force of arms.
Settler colonialism.
… you can do a settler colonialism either with or without enslaving or forcibly assimilating the mainstay local population.
In America, we just killed most of them. Did a bit of the kidnapping and forced culturalization of children too.
》Ah, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
do you think these wars were of a settler colonialist character?
Yeah Russia is ok
go play with your balls I don’t care about arguing with you there’s no point you’re a westerner
Well that certainly is a way to convince someone of something; insult them and then other them, and use that othering as the explanation why they just aren’t capable of understanding complicated concepts.
Poka poka, spasibo za vstrechu.
tankies aren’t usually ones for rationalism or any sort of debate/dialectic, i sincerely doubt you’ll get a response bc he knows he’s gonna get trounced on and revealed as an idiot the moment he attempts to do it.
can’t blame you tho, I like playing around with it sometimes too. it’s like, the opposite of trolling imo. you just hit them with stone-cold rigor and they troll themselves out of frustration lmao.