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do you need my presence here
Are you not entertained?
Sounds like you were summoned by ouija board.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
My biggest piece of advice to junior staff is: if you’re not provided an agenda prior to a meeting, your attendance is not required. RSVP with Yes if it sounds interesting/beneficial and you have the time, otherwise Nope (or Tentative) your way out of it.
The obvious caveat is if that meeting is called by someone with role power over you. In which case: as they clearly don’t respect your time, it’s on you to (politely) ask them to provide an agenda. It may also indirectly train them to be less shit.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
I feel/felt similarly but I am now calling for meetings because it seems to be the easiest way to get my peers and superiors to do their fucking job so that I’m not stuck in limbo waiting for their parts to be finished. It seems like they only respond to slack mentions / emails / task assignments at random which leaves important, unanswered requests/questions just sitting there.
Sorry, this past year I’ve been working with another department for a project that, due to aforementioned woes, has run about 6-12 months more than it needs to.
I’m in the public sector and everyone is very busy and pulled in many directions so I kind of get it… but I want to be done with this thing.
Also in the public sector and when I started, project managers were required to include everyone under the sun for pointless update meetings every two weeks for the PM to read out the reports everyone gave them so nobody missed anything. By the time they were done everyone wanted to bail, including me. They were meetings that could be an email, and if there were issues then additional meetings were scheduled.
Over time I have been promoted up through PM and now get to define the best practices for projects including meetings. My meetings are productive and people actually want to show up as they are discussions where work might be canceled or put off so people don’t get overloaded. I make sure everyone is included without putting anyone on the spot. The departments we work with to create web apps like us more since we started giving reasons for saying no instead of working devs to death in overtime because PMs were not allowed to say no.
I do have one project that is an albatross I can’t kill because of the sunk cost fallacy, but at least it is one small project that gets raised every few months to get put on the backburner while the largest and most complex project is now running smoothly. Other PMs have also improved their interactions when they were given examples in how to more clearly communicate their challenges, although a few don’t want to give up the ‘do everything asked’ approach.
We have also had 5 developers who left for the private sector come back over the last 10 years because of the work culture. The grass wasn’t greener, but they did come back with new skills and a better appreciation for the improved communication and overtime is almost entirely voluntary!
You don’t need to set meetings. You need to set deadlines.
I’ve tried deadlines. I’ve asked for things to be done before our next meeting with the vendor we’re working with. Hell, almost everything I need done is clearly conveyed as “I cannot proceed to move your project forward until you perform X task that I don’t have the rights to perform or make a decision regarding your department’s policy on X.” In fact, I’ve shown up at the meetings with them and the vendor and literally told them the situation - they do everything that’s piled up in like 5-10 minutes and are apologetic. Then two days later I need another small thing and it begins again. So now I call for a meeting to “go over the project days the next vendor meeting.” I really just have a list of shit I can’t work on for the next vendor meeting because ya’ll don’t respond to all my requests otherwise.
Also remember, some of these are directed at my superiors - like the boss of the department I’m working with. It’s their project so it’s not like I’m getting in trouble or missing my deadlines. It just murders my flow state and frustrates me to no end when it can take days or weeks to get a response.
Just noped out of my last job cos the new manager was randomly calling me without a heads up to understand what the next steps are. Aka asking me and the other team member to do his work for him. I see highly competent people struggling to find jobs and guys like this in F500 companies — and can’t help but wonder what’s wrong with selection.
Meeting host here too Agenda : defective thingamajig from supplier
- agenda Hello everu one we suspect that some mcguffins have been shipped with defectives turbo-encubalators. We have 24h to decide if we need to informed government agency
Inventory people - please identify origine of the turbo-encubalators and deliveries Engineers -please make risk assessment form, we strongly suspect defective product are in service.
Providing agenda is only useful if people fucking read it and inform themselves on the subject before coming in. Hi everybody why am I here? - you were supposed to evaluate the safety risk for customer using this defective component we discovered. - oh Why me? -you are the engineer that designed the part Can’t the supplier do the investigation, I have to make a report to my boss to identify where we can cut support
Agreed.
I didn’t mention that I also spend time after every meeting I host putting together a summary of what was discussed along with a bullet point list of deliverables, who agreed to work on them, and due dates and then send it to all attendees, invitees, and stakeholders.
It deals with the Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man meme problem and “magnanimous work dodgers” - those who promise the world in meetings but then seemingly disappear off the planet.
It probably should be noted that many of the meetings I host are recurring, often weekly or fortnightly, so it’s easy to find a rhythm (and identify the problem children).
Email recap never comes. Miss out on key decision points. Attend next meeting. Nothing is agreed just talk for the sake of talking. Objections disregarded. Side meeting happens without you. Key points agreed with management in your absence. You’re just a cog in a giant hamster wheel. Not even the hamster. Cry at night.
Some meetings, I wish I’d bought a steamdeck.
Cry at night.
That would imply that I care. I wouldn’t recommend caring.
I’m here for the income, not the outcome. You want to pay me then disregard my advice? That’s cool. Check still clears.
I think I’ve been “management” in this scenario… Not intentionally, I’ve just been on so many shit ass working groups where our meetings were just political grandstanding that I feel we had to “get work done” in the off hours.
“Other duties as assigned” of course. 🙄
#Corpo-Pro-Tips
Sounds like they are talking in buzzwords.
Correct. If we stop using buzzwords, then we will have to start asking ourselves what we are actually doing here
I think we should circle back and close the loop on that one later…
I’m aligned with your perspective, and I appreciate the clarity you’ve brought to this facet of the conversation. From a tactical standpoint, I want to loop in the stakeholders to ensure they are also in sync with the continued usage of buzzwords.
If you run into any blockers, please circle back.
Cheers!
I will hunt you for sport.
A service to humanity, really
Corporate buzzwords are cargo cult behavior. Jargon and industry-specific terms can be helpful for accurately communicating precise or nuanced ideas, but generic buzzwords are just people who try to sound professional or smart by mimicking the people they’ve seen in those roles.
Just asking “what’s my role in the meeting” is a simple way to get to the point, and isn’t impolite or unprofessional.
Some higher ups can get pissy at slaves that correctly guess that their actual work is more important than listening to inane bullshit. I know, it shows that said higher ups are unprofessional, but meritocracy is a lie anyway.
Sure, but the overall intent holds true. Not just in professional settings, it’s important to have the skill to reframe a negative comment into a positive one.
This is probably what I would say:
It sounds like you’ve got everything you need for the meeting. Would it still make sense for me to attend?
If that’s the case, then I think I’d be more useful handling some other tasks in the meantime. Please keep me updated on the outcome of the meeting
Such corpo bullshit, do it the Scandinavian way, I don’t think this meeting is for me, have a good meeting though. Done and done
Don’t you want to empower the business and yourself by attending the meetings here? Why complicate the process by excluding yourself from the conversation.
Even saying that made me feel sick.
Y’all are invited to optional meetings??? Lol
Talk to your manager.
Shortly after I was hired, my manager told me I should feel free to decline any meeting that didn’t seem useful, or that if it was preventing me from getting “real” work done.
Or just ask the person organizing the meeting.
“I saw you added me to a meeting tomorrow. Can you provide a bit of context so I can come prepared?”
you want me on the call, I’m there.
don’t complain when I don’t deliver on goals though.
I used to work at this company where like 3 guys took care of basically everything. All but one of them, let’s call him Rob, eventually left to better companies. About a month after that, my team had to deal with a pretty big issue and we were having trouble coming up with a solution so this idiot had the brilliant idea to page Rob. As if the poor guy hadn’t spent the last month doing the job of 3 people who were already doing the job of a 5 people each. Rob got online, said “Why did you page me?” and immediately left before getting a response. I liked Rob.
lol classic Rob!
I just say, “So, you guys need me in here?”
Nah, fuck this lickspittle corpo speak!
“What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included?” is a perfectly polite sentence appropriate in any work environment consisting of mature and distinguished adults.
Do not enslave yourself to the machine, because the people running it will treat you like a slave.
consisting of mature and distinguished adults
That part can actually be problematic in many places in my experience.
That is absolutely not something to say if the meeting is pulled together by management on high. Peers? Sure you can say stuff like that, but to someone you may not know or have little interaction with that can be a death knell for your reputation.
The trick is to be so reliable that no one would conceive of getting rid of you even if you come off a little assholish sometimes. I started on the help desk at my last job (fairly large company with around ~25k employees and within a year or two I was the go to for a few of the c-levels when they had issues. I pissed off middle management types occasionally when I couldn’t do something they wanted right away because I needed more information or whatever and had to wait on something. Anytime they tried to start shit with me it never took long for a bigger fish to get involved and have my back because they were familiar with my work and knew I wasn’t just fucking around.
I often find that misappropriating an out of context Paul Rudd quote arguably condoning sexual harassment works perfectly to describe the level of effort one should put in;
“Work 60% of the time, Alllll the time”
Any more than 60% effort and it becomes a drain, any less and management will look to replace. 60% effort is the sweet spot for surviving corporate life rather than succumbing to it.
Yeah be sure to say you won’t be a value-add. That’s a great way to not get laid off.
If you don’t know what’s going on, but they make you go to the meeting, just go to the meeting and stfu.
If you do know what’s going on, and they make you go to the meeting, and it’s a bullshit meeting, then you can tell them to fuck off.
Something something avocado toast. Get off my lawn.
Sometimes it’s “because you’ll be paid for your time and your boss wants you on the call”.
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