Looking at the responses in this thread, I’m pretty sure I don’t know enough to comment on the situation. Seems like you would have to study this subject semi-exclusively in order to have an informed take.
No no no! You’re not allowed to talk about the US laying claim to huge swaths of the Ukrainian interior in exchange for another round of weapons imports. My libertarian friends told me that this is fine because the US is getting the land through contracts, which are totally bloodless and not in any way an infringement on the rights of the Ukrainian native peoples.
The above comic only applies to folks on the Eastern side of the big line. Westerners would never exploit the precarious position of Ukrainian nationalists to rob them, press-gang them into front-line combat rolls, and then snatch up all the vacant real estate once the smoke clears.
They come here with their nonsnense equalizing a regular war to a genocide going on right now, the comic doesn’t even make sense in the situation of Ukraine, it’s about settler colonialism, something Russia doesn’t do
it’s about settler colonialism, something Russia doesn’t do
Okay, tap the breaks dude.
I’ll spot you that Ukraine/Russia is the latest in a long line of proxy wars between Eastern and Western oligarchs. And I’ll happily concede that Ukrainians are being swindled by their NATO “allies” while they’re forced to play punching bag in order to exhaust its historical enemy. I’ll even through in a “Maidan was a color revolution and liberal Ukrainians got royally played”.
But the idea that Russians aren’t above a little expansionism and exploitation is just… my god, man. Literally centuries of history to the contrary.
How on Earth is it not settler colonialism when Russia engages in a prolonged campaign of trying to russify the Ukranian language, heavily propogandizing those in border regions to either get them to apply for, or either grant them Russian passports/citizenship, then they claim the rightful borders have moved, then invade and capture those border areas (and others), and then emgage in ethnic cleansing within those border areas?
Please, explain to me how that isn’t settler colonialism, just with a few initial, semi-novel/semi-uncommon extra steps?
You don’t read books or theory about colonialism, you don’t look at the news or the current event, you give vibe based “analysis” of the situation, and you want me to explain the entirety of colonialism from beginning to end just because your lazy ass won’t read Frantz Fanon.
Yep, Russia stole third of Ukraine and tries to pretend it’s a part of their country not because they’re doing colonialism, but because… um… nothing I guess, it’s not happening actually. All the Ukranians just deciding to die of natural causes there.
I mean, you could throw in the conflicts in Sudan and Ethiopia, the Indian encroachment into Kashmir, the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe even the 200 year old campaign to re-enslave Haiti.
Gaza’s just the latest in a long line of atrocities.
What are you talking about the russians already lived in donbass which is why they voted to secede when the banderites started bombing them. Its not like settler colonialism at all.
That doesn’t explain why Russians have been occupying land in Ukraine for all that time. When an imperialist state conquers territory, it occupies the land in order to legitimize its claim it.
They are there, because Ukraine has been a vassal state to Russia, with its people treated as second-class citizens, for centuries. During that time, they have oscillated back and forth in status from rebellion to re-conquered, many times. This is just the latest wave of Russian oppression intended to crush dissent and re-establish Russian dominance over Ukraine through the russification of Ukrainian culture, language and identity. Wash, rinse, repeat.
But many do, and did historically, as it was part of Russia prior to the USSR.
But I have a genuine question: suppose that the majority of people living in Donbass genuinely wanted to break off and become part of Russia. Should they be allowed to, and if so, what steps should they have taken to make it happen, in the context that the government banned major opposition parties that were sympathetic towards Russia? What are you supposed to do, exactly, when the country is moving in a direction that you disagree with and shutting the opposition out of the political process, after seizing power through force?
All that says, is that you are this close to admitting that Ukraine has been an occupied territory for centuries. Except you are using that fact as a justification for continued occupation, and not a reason for Russia to stop their colonial objectives.
What I did was state a couple objective historical facts and then ask a question, one that none of the downvoters and none of the people who have replied to me (including you) have anything resembling an answer to.
All y’all do when you get confronted by something you can’t answer is downvote, fall back on lazy talking points, block, and ignore it. This makes your criticism very hard to take seriously, you just parrot the news, with no investigation or critical thought.
Not all of modern Ukraine was part of Russia before the USSR, btw. When I said “it” I was referring specifically to the Donbass. Donbass was given to Ukraine, perhaps in the hope that the Russian population would influence the politics of the Ukrainian SSR in a way that was more cooperative with the rest of the Union. This is simply a fact, and astute readers will note that it’s mostly tangential to my actual question, except in that establishes that many Russians have lived there historically.
That’s not what it says. Your refusal to engage with evidence has you pretending you found a gotcha because you assume anything that disagrees with you has to be based on a flawed premise.
You’re literally ignoring the facts he presented (maidan was a coup, Donbas collectively decided to secede in a referendum). The people of the Donbas were resisting an attempted genocide as much as Gazans, you can listen to Poroshenko’s statements about bombing their hospitals, having their women and children hiding in basements, you can see the indiscriminate shelling of civilian centers. Both of them were propped up by your government (the lapdog of the only empire on earth rn), and by you personally, from your stupid refusal to acknowledge actual imperialism and pretending the enemies of the State Department must be the enemies of all of us everywhere.
Hey let’s switch examples and see if your logic stands up. The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries? Or is that fucking weird?
The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries?
glances at the current government of the United States
glances at the current government of Mexico
I’m raising my little Casa Bonita style Mexican flag to signal that I approve.
Really telling on yourselves that yet another liberation movement reclaiming land that was stolen and an occupied and exploited to enrich empire is framed as the ultimate evil.
There is a mild secessionist movement in CA. People of all ethnicities in the city can dissaprove of the oppression taking place. Pre-2022, ask in Donbas was just autonomy from nazis shelling it relatively indiscriminantly. CA even if it were to ask for military help from Mexico or China, wouldn’t have as first choice to join as one of their provinces. In both cases, independence is more about humanist self determination rather than ethnic loyalties even if the fascist oppression is centered on extermination of ethnic/liberal “sub humans”
It’s funny because the Russians in the donbass were being ethnically cleansed and you picked an example where that’s also happening and they’re equally justified in using violence to defend themselves.
Especially if the government said that those people were not allowed to participate in the political process, but given that the US political process is a joke and a sham, I don’t have any sort of belief in “upholding its territorial integrity” or anything like that.
Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, does it not?
See how I was able to immediately provide a very clear answer to your question? Now do mine.
So, do you remember how British colonists Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin went to France to negotiate for French military aid against the British, and how Lafayette arriving with that aid was vital to the success of the American Revolution? Well, I happen to be of the opinion that when people say that Trump is a fascist or is acting like a king, and that “in America, we don’t do kings,” that those words actually have meaning and aren’t just empty slogans.
The real question is, why do y’all think it would be bad for people resisting fascism to have access to artillery systems and missile batteries? 🤔
I’m not OP, I’m just pointing out your not answering questions either, as you’re so keen on pointing out. (Didn’t read the rest of your vomit, because braaaaaaaa)
Historically the acceptable answer if you want to live in a different country would be to, you know, move to that country, instead of trying to move that country to you through war.
Btw, the Donbas is not a historically majority Russian region. It was subject to russification starting under tsarist Russia and intensified under the Soviets. But it was majority Ukrainian, home to the Ukrainian cossacks and major settlements were also deeply intertwined with the Ukrainian economy.
The Ruthenians had been a people for centuries at that point, culturally similar but distinct from the Russians. History did not begin with the Soviet Union, nor are people defined by their borders, especially not in an age of empires and often shifting borders.
The claim you made was “Russiafication of the Donbass increased under the Soviets.” The same Soviets who granted the Donbass to Ukraine. Nothing in your comment seems at all relevant to that.
This is completely false. It was seat of Crimean Khanate, vassal of Ottoman Empire, which was also hostile to Poland, Russia AND cossacks. And “deeply intertwined with the Ukrainian economy” was mostly looting, kidnapping, raping and murdering Ruthenian peasants (ancestors of both Ukrainians and local Russians) as part of one of biggest historical slave trades which Russia ended when it conquered that blight of humanity Khanate was.
Your post is deeply ahistorical, disgusting and borders on slavery apologia, and you should be ashamed.
That’s even further back. I’m talking about the period when the Russian empire controlled the territory. During that time (+100 years), there was far more economic integration with the Ruthenians than there was with Russia proper. It made more logistical sense, it’s the same reason for which Crimea was ceded to Ukraine by the Soviets, Kiev due to its positioning was better suited to administratively control it.
The tsar sought to increase his influence over the region and began the process of russification, to tie the valuable region to Russia proper. The Soviets accelerated this, as they did in most of the other Soviet states.
Also thanks to ml mods to shut down any discussion. Come on, you’re better than just censoring comments.
The soviets did not expand russification, it was the opposite. They preserved and made official tons of minority languages (yiddish comes to mind), even establishing publishing houses in these languages. In addition to the SSRs that preserved the national identities and cultures of the given republics, the soviets instituted protections for minorities within these ssrs.
Initially this is absolutely true! Under Lenin particularly this was very much promoted “indiginenisation” iirc it’s best translated as in English. But particularly under Khrushchev and later Breznhnev this very much changed, focusing on the single Soviet identity.
They didn’t really prosecute these minorities mind, just very much promoted the Soviet culture and Russian language in a large variety of ways.
Do you have any supporting evidence whatsoever for the claim that Russiafication was worse under the Soviets than under the tsar? Because if not, the mods are well within their rights to remove your unsupported claims as misinformation.
The Soviets pursued korenization initially, which actually revived efforts towards Ukrainization. But this was later stopped and reversed to pursue a single Soviet identity with the Russian language. Ukrainian culture was suppressed and even Ukrainian membership of the communist party declined sharply. Russification intensified under Khrushchev and later Brezhnev.
It’s a complicated issue to solve, and I’m not the person to solve it but the Russian state’s approach has basically been in every single way wrong.
The Russian ethnic minority and it’s treatment is a domestic issue. It is not a suitable pretext for Russia to invade a country, bomb schools and hospitals, and force Ukrainians into either a smaller portion of their country or to live under an ethnostate that does not represent them. Putin has naked imperial ambitions not just in Ukraine but also in Georgia.
I’m now gonna block you, as I do everyone with pro-Russia views. Because anyone that can excuse Russia’s actions is not worthy of my attention.
the Russian state’s approach has basically been in every single way wrong.
This is the nut of it and the thing a lot of folks seem to struggle with. The NATO fuckery in Ukraine notwithstanding, Putin thought he could raise the stakes in Ukraine through a full scale invasion. He was absolutely wrong to do so. He fucked things harder than a thousand pogroms in the Donbas could have done.
The Russian ethnic minority and it’s treatment is a domestic issue.
Okay, no. That’s not how internationalism works. You don’t look across the border at an atrocity, shrug, and say “Not my problem.”
The Russian response could have been to open their own borders, build up relief on their end, and give Donbas residents a safe place to run and hide. But “sorry fuckers, should have been a Russian born in Russia” is as meat-headed as the folks who wanted to charge into Ukraine guns blazing.
Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles (a lot of which like the liberation of Sahel is directly possible only because NATO is currently being uncovered as paper tiger).
I would say it’s very distant from “fucking up”.
than a thousand pogroms in the Donbas could have done.
What a nice thing to say, pogrom enjoyer. Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time. And if it wasn’t, you probably wouldn’t even cry the crocodile tears, beacuse what’s a pogrom or hundred, right?
Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles
Might want to update your priors. Russia’s claiming a pyrrhic victory on the ground while losing irreplaceable assets and allies. US hegemony has been crumbling since the '00s, that’s nothing new. The vassals are, if anything, more militant and expansionist than ever (glances towards Israel)
Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time.
How can you count the dead in this war well over the million mark and say that with a straight face?
I’m really not sure what it is you think Russia lost access to exactly given that they’re part of BRICS which is a bigger economic bloc than the G7 at this point.
The Russian minority wasn’t being genocided, and at most they could be ethnically cleansed considering Russia has it’s own nuclear-armed ethnostate that’s the largest in the world. Genocide is an international issue, what was not even an ethnic cleansing is a domestic issue.
It’s Russians that live in the Donbass, not Poles.
There are a few Taiwanese in Taiwan apart from Chinese,
a few Australians in Australia apart from Anglos,
and a few Americans in the US apart from Anglos,
but there are no Ukrainians in Ukraine.
In Ukraine in general, ~68% speak Ukranian natively, ~17% are native Ukranian/Russian bilingual, ~14% are native Russian speakers.
In the Donbas, ~27% Ukrainian native speakers, ~29% bilinguals, ~42% Russian native speakers.
Going by nationality:
~73% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~18% of Ukranian nationals are bilingual natives.
~9% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Russian.
~4% of Russian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~14% of Russian nationals are bilingual.
~81% of Russian nationals natively speak Russian.
All these numbers are from 2017.
…
I think it is safe to say that there are in fact many Ukranians in Ukraine, even many Ukranians in Donbas, at least prior to 2022… due to, you know, the ethnic cleansing undertaken by an occupying foreign national army.
My napkin math on those numbers works out to 53% Russian nationals vs 46% Ukranian nationals in Donbas in 2017.
Using a 53% Russian vs 46% Ukranian proportion to justify mass military force against the Ukranian population in Donbas is roughly the same logic that would conclude it is morally correct to invade Los Angeles and deport everyone who isn’t fluent in English, which has similar proportions between English and Spanish.
No, they are fascist Russians who speak a different language because they hated communism and decided to turn their Russian dialect into a full-blown language.
The Soviets decided to respect the language and cultural differences as long as they denounced their fascism.
Plus “The West” is too vague a term to take seriously.
If you’re from the US, you’re soon going to be familiar with the ‘fascist spin-off nation’.
Calling another language a “dialect” is really lame if I’m being honest. The Ukrainian and Belarusian languages descended from Rutherian, which split from Russian hundreds of years ago. After centuries of Ukraine being occupied by one foreign power after another the history is all over the place but long story short Ukrainian is as much a dialect of Russian as English is a dialect of Latin.
And as for the Ukrainian identity not being real … if it wasn’t real then Russia wouldn’t be trying to erase it. Ukraine has only been part of Russia for 80 out of the last 800 years. I should not bother arguing with you, I don’t know why I even bother. I’m gonna block you like I do every tankie.
Lol, the differences between Ukrainian and Russian began in the 13th century, when old Ukrainian shifted /g/ to /ɣ/ and then to modern day /ɦ/.
By that logic, Germany should swallow the Netherlands because clearly Dutch and German have the same origins and are just dialects. Hell, if you go back to the 11th century, i.e. the Kievan Rus, a bunch of now distinct languages were much closer to each other.
Ukrainian has a lot more German, Polish and Tartar loanwords than Russian. Southwestern Dialects of Ukrainian are closer to Polish than to Russian. Ukrainian has an 38% difference in Vocabulary to Russian, which is roughly the difference between Italian and Spanish.
Ukrainian also preserved it’s vocative case, which has disappeared from Russian. It possesses 3 different future tenses, opposed to 2 in Russian. These are two different languages
Soviet promotion of the Ukrainian language was not an “appeasement of fascist russians”, it was a reversal of Tsarist oppression. Just up until the 1930s, when the USSR again made a 180 turn on their language policies throughout its territory.
Huh, I wasn’t expecting a comic critical of Russia’s Ukraine invasion in this comm.
In your fantasy’s world it might be. Irl, not at all.
Looking at the responses in this thread, I’m pretty sure I don’t know enough to comment on the situation. Seems like you would have to study this subject semi-exclusively in order to have an informed take.
Fascists are murdering both ukrainians and palestinians. Grow up, lib.
Exactly, the Nazis in the Ukrainian government are sending Ukranians into meat grinders for the profits of the U.S. empire
I love how all the chuds from nazi adjacent instances come out of the woodwork to downvote anybody pointing out the basic facts of the situation.
No no no! You’re not allowed to talk about the US laying claim to huge swaths of the Ukrainian interior in exchange for another round of weapons imports. My libertarian friends told me that this is fine because the US is getting the land through contracts, which are totally bloodless and not in any way an infringement on the rights of the Ukrainian native peoples.
The above comic only applies to folks on the Eastern side of the big line. Westerners would never exploit the precarious position of Ukrainian nationalists to rob them, press-gang them into front-line combat rolls, and then snatch up all the vacant real estate once the smoke clears.
Aaaaand there it is.
They come here with their nonsnense equalizing a regular war to a genocide going on right now, the comic doesn’t even make sense in the situation of Ukraine, it’s about settler colonialism, something Russia doesn’t do
Okay, tap the breaks dude.
I’ll spot you that Ukraine/Russia is the latest in a long line of proxy wars between Eastern and Western oligarchs. And I’ll happily concede that Ukrainians are being swindled by their NATO “allies” while they’re forced to play punching bag in order to exhaust its historical enemy. I’ll even through in a “Maidan was a color revolution and liberal Ukrainians got royally played”.
But the idea that Russians aren’t above a little expansionism and exploitation is just… my god, man. Literally centuries of history to the contrary.
How on Earth is it not settler colonialism when Russia engages in a prolonged campaign of trying to russify the Ukranian language, heavily propogandizing those in border regions to either get them to apply for, or either grant them Russian passports/citizenship, then they claim the rightful borders have moved, then invade and capture those border areas (and others), and then emgage in ethnic cleansing within those border areas?
Please, explain to me how that isn’t settler colonialism, just with a few initial, semi-novel/semi-uncommon extra steps?
you don’t know what is settler colonialism and you don’t know what is reality, gtfo don’t compare Palestine to Ukraine
Would you care to explain anything, or do you just want to have a hissy fit?
You don’t read books or theory about colonialism, you don’t look at the news or the current event, you give vibe based “analysis” of the situation, and you want me to explain the entirety of colonialism from beginning to end just because your lazy ass won’t read Frantz Fanon.
Yep, Russia stole third of Ukraine and tries to pretend it’s a part of their country not because they’re doing colonialism, but because… um… nothing I guess, it’s not happening actually. All the Ukranians just deciding to die of natural causes there.
you genuinely don’t know what colonialism is
Colonialism is when a country I don’t like does a thing I don’t like somewhere else. Imperialism is when any country attacks any other.
There, who needs books when it’s that simple, tankies?
Colonialism is when two countries have a war
I was pretty sure it was the Gaza situation.
I mean, you could throw in the conflicts in Sudan and Ethiopia, the Indian encroachment into Kashmir, the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe even the 200 year old campaign to re-enslave Haiti.
Gaza’s just the latest in a long line of atrocities.
¿Porque no los dos?
What are you talking about the russians already lived in donbass which is why they voted to secede when the banderites started bombing them. Its not like settler colonialism at all.
That doesn’t explain why Russians have been occupying land in Ukraine for all that time. When an imperialist state conquers territory, it occupies the land in order to legitimize its claim it.
They are there, because Ukraine has been a vassal state to Russia, with its people treated as second-class citizens, for centuries. During that time, they have oscillated back and forth in status from rebellion to re-conquered, many times. This is just the latest wave of Russian oppression intended to crush dissent and re-establish Russian dominance over Ukraine through the russification of Ukrainian culture, language and identity. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Vatnik detected
It wasn’t just Russians that lived in Donbass.
But many do, and did historically, as it was part of Russia prior to the USSR.
But I have a genuine question: suppose that the majority of people living in Donbass genuinely wanted to break off and become part of Russia. Should they be allowed to, and if so, what steps should they have taken to make it happen, in the context that the government banned major opposition parties that were sympathetic towards Russia? What are you supposed to do, exactly, when the country is moving in a direction that you disagree with and shutting the opposition out of the political process, after seizing power through force?
All that says, is that you are this close to admitting that Ukraine has been an occupied territory for centuries. Except you are using that fact as a justification for continued occupation, and not a reason for Russia to stop their colonial objectives.
I didn’t say any of that shit.
What I did was state a couple objective historical facts and then ask a question, one that none of the downvoters and none of the people who have replied to me (including you) have anything resembling an answer to.
All y’all do when you get confronted by something you can’t answer is downvote, fall back on lazy talking points, block, and ignore it. This makes your criticism very hard to take seriously, you just parrot the news, with no investigation or critical thought.
Not all of modern Ukraine was part of Russia before the USSR, btw. When I said “it” I was referring specifically to the Donbass. Donbass was given to Ukraine, perhaps in the hope that the Russian population would influence the politics of the Ukrainian SSR in a way that was more cooperative with the rest of the Union. This is simply a fact, and astute readers will note that it’s mostly tangential to my actual question, except in that establishes that many Russians have lived there historically.
That’s not what it says. Your refusal to engage with evidence has you pretending you found a gotcha because you assume anything that disagrees with you has to be based on a flawed premise.
You’re literally ignoring the facts he presented (maidan was a coup, Donbas collectively decided to secede in a referendum). The people of the Donbas were resisting an attempted genocide as much as Gazans, you can listen to Poroshenko’s statements about bombing their hospitals, having their women and children hiding in basements, you can see the indiscriminate shelling of civilian centers. Both of them were propped up by your government (the lapdog of the only empire on earth rn), and by you personally, from your stupid refusal to acknowledge actual imperialism and pretending the enemies of the State Department must be the enemies of all of us everywhere.
Hey let’s switch examples and see if your logic stands up. The name Los Angeles is Spanish. Because Spanish speakers have been there longer than English speakers. If the Spanish speakers don’t like the president of the United States, does that mean it’s perfectly acceptable for the Mexican government to provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries? Or is that fucking weird?
A downvote is not an answer btw.
glances at the current government of the United States
glances at the current government of Mexico
I’m raising my little Casa Bonita style Mexican flag to signal that I approve.
Bruh
Really telling on yourselves that yet another liberation movement reclaiming land that was stolen and an occupied and exploited to enrich empire is framed as the ultimate evil.
Fucking gringos.
Yes, and no it is not weird
Who is upvoting this racist lib fantasy? smh.
Everyone should rise up against this disgusting empire regardless of their “language”.
There is a mild secessionist movement in CA. People of all ethnicities in the city can dissaprove of the oppression taking place. Pre-2022, ask in Donbas was just autonomy from nazis shelling it relatively indiscriminantly. CA even if it were to ask for military help from Mexico or China, wouldn’t have as first choice to join as one of their provinces. In both cases, independence is more about humanist self determination rather than ethnic loyalties even if the fascist oppression is centered on extermination of ethnic/liberal “sub humans”
It’s funny because the Russians in the donbass were being ethnically cleansed and you picked an example where that’s also happening and they’re equally justified in using violence to defend themselves.
Yes. I wish they would.
Especially if the government said that those people were not allowed to participate in the political process, but given that the US political process is a joke and a sham, I don’t have any sort of belief in “upholding its territorial integrity” or anything like that.
Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, does it not?
See how I was able to immediately provide a very clear answer to your question? Now do mine.
Now why do you wish the Mexican government would provide Spanish speaking protesters in LA with artillery systems and missile batteries, exactly?
So, do you remember how British colonists Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin went to France to negotiate for French military aid against the British, and how Lafayette arriving with that aid was vital to the success of the American Revolution? Well, I happen to be of the opinion that when people say that Trump is a fascist or is acting like a king, and that “in America, we don’t do kings,” that those words actually have meaning and aren’t just empty slogans.
The real question is, why do y’all think it would be bad for people resisting fascism to have access to artillery systems and missile batteries? 🤔
Btw, still no answer to my original question.
I’m not OP, I’m just pointing out your not answering questions either, as you’re so keen on pointing out. (Didn’t read the rest of your vomit, because braaaaaaaa)
Historically the acceptable answer if you want to live in a different country would be to, you know, move to that country, instead of trying to move that country to you through war.
Btw, the Donbas is not a historically majority Russian region. It was subject to russification starting under tsarist Russia and intensified under the Soviets. But it was majority Ukrainian, home to the Ukrainian cossacks and major settlements were also deeply intertwined with the Ukrainian economy.
Interesting how “russiafication intensified under the Soviets” when the Soviets are the ones who gave the territory to Ukraine 🤔
The Ruthenians had been a people for centuries at that point, culturally similar but distinct from the Russians. History did not begin with the Soviet Union, nor are people defined by their borders, especially not in an age of empires and often shifting borders.
Non sequitor?
The claim you made was “Russiafication of the Donbass increased under the Soviets.” The same Soviets who granted the Donbass to Ukraine. Nothing in your comment seems at all relevant to that.
This is completely false. It was seat of Crimean Khanate, vassal of Ottoman Empire, which was also hostile to Poland, Russia AND cossacks. And “deeply intertwined with the Ukrainian economy” was mostly looting, kidnapping, raping and murdering Ruthenian peasants (ancestors of both Ukrainians and local Russians) as part of one of biggest historical slave trades which Russia ended when it conquered that blight of humanity Khanate was.
Your post is deeply ahistorical, disgusting and borders on slavery apologia, and you should be ashamed.
That’s even further back. I’m talking about the period when the Russian empire controlled the territory. During that time (+100 years), there was far more economic integration with the Ruthenians than there was with Russia proper. It made more logistical sense, it’s the same reason for which Crimea was ceded to Ukraine by the Soviets, Kiev due to its positioning was better suited to administratively control it.
The tsar sought to increase his influence over the region and began the process of russification, to tie the valuable region to Russia proper. The Soviets accelerated this, as they did in most of the other Soviet states.
Also thanks to ml mods to shut down any discussion. Come on, you’re better than just censoring comments.
The soviets did not expand russification, it was the opposite. They preserved and made official tons of minority languages (yiddish comes to mind), even establishing publishing houses in these languages. In addition to the SSRs that preserved the national identities and cultures of the given republics, the soviets instituted protections for minorities within these ssrs.
Initially this is absolutely true! Under Lenin particularly this was very much promoted “indiginenisation” iirc it’s best translated as in English. But particularly under Khrushchev and later Breznhnev this very much changed, focusing on the single Soviet identity.
They didn’t really prosecute these minorities mind, just very much promoted the Soviet culture and Russian language in a large variety of ways.
You dont get to post vibes base ahistoric nonsense (like you again did) then cry about mods “censoring” you.
Do you have any supporting evidence whatsoever for the claim that Russiafication was worse under the Soviets than under the tsar? Because if not, the mods are well within their rights to remove your unsupported claims as misinformation.
Sure, here’s a source: https://archive.org/details/acrossmoscowrive00brai
The Soviets pursued korenization initially, which actually revived efforts towards Ukrainization. But this was later stopped and reversed to pursue a single Soviet identity with the Russian language. Ukrainian culture was suppressed and even Ukrainian membership of the communist party declined sharply. Russification intensified under Khrushchev and later Brezhnev.
It’s a complicated issue to solve, and I’m not the person to solve it but the Russian state’s approach has basically been in every single way wrong.
The Russian ethnic minority and it’s treatment is a domestic issue. It is not a suitable pretext for Russia to invade a country, bomb schools and hospitals, and force Ukrainians into either a smaller portion of their country or to live under an ethnostate that does not represent them. Putin has naked imperial ambitions not just in Ukraine but also in Georgia.
I’m now gonna block you, as I do everyone with pro-Russia views. Because anyone that can excuse Russia’s actions is not worthy of my attention.
This is the nut of it and the thing a lot of folks seem to struggle with. The NATO fuckery in Ukraine notwithstanding, Putin thought he could raise the stakes in Ukraine through a full scale invasion. He was absolutely wrong to do so. He fucked things harder than a thousand pogroms in the Donbas could have done.
Okay, no. That’s not how internationalism works. You don’t look across the border at an atrocity, shrug, and say “Not my problem.”
The Russian response could have been to open their own borders, build up relief on their end, and give Donbas residents a safe place to run and hide. But “sorry fuckers, should have been a Russian born in Russia” is as meat-headed as the folks who wanted to charge into Ukraine guns blazing.
Last when i checked Russia is winning the war, its economy is rising, its economical bloc is gaining traction while the US hegemony crumbles and US vassals are in complete shambles (a lot of which like the liberation of Sahel is directly possible only because NATO is currently being uncovered as paper tiger).
I would say it’s very distant from “fucking up”.
What a nice thing to say, pogrom enjoyer. Donbass is one of the genocides we will never know how bad they would get because they were stopped in time. And if it wasn’t, you probably wouldn’t even cry the crocodile tears, beacuse what’s a pogrom or hundred, right?
Might want to update your priors. Russia’s claiming a pyrrhic victory on the ground while losing irreplaceable assets and allies. US hegemony has been crumbling since the '00s, that’s nothing new. The vassals are, if anything, more militant and expansionist than ever (glances towards Israel)
How can you count the dead in this war well over the million mark and say that with a straight face?
The World Bank just reclassified Russia as a high income country https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/opendata/world-bank-country-classifications-by-income-level-for-2024-2025
Meanwhile, the IMF forecasts that Russian economy is set to grow faster than all the western economies https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/russia-forecast-to-grow-faster-than-advanced-economies-in-2024-imf.html
I’m really not sure what it is you think Russia lost access to exactly given that they’re part of BRICS which is a bigger economic bloc than the G7 at this point.
You absolute baby
Hey that’s exactly what Candice Owens said about how Hitler treated the jews
The Russian minority wasn’t being genocided, and at most they could be ethnically cleansed considering Russia has it’s own nuclear-armed ethnostate that’s the largest in the world. Genocide is an international issue, what was not even an ethnic cleansing is a domestic issue.
It’s Russians that live in the Donbass, not Poles.
There are a few Taiwanese in Taiwan apart from Chinese,
a few Australians in Australia apart from Anglos,
and a few Americans in the US apart from Anglos,
but there are no Ukrainians in Ukraine.
In Ukraine in general, ~68% speak Ukranian natively, ~17% are native Ukranian/Russian bilingual, ~14% are native Russian speakers.
In the Donbas, ~27% Ukrainian native speakers, ~29% bilinguals, ~42% Russian native speakers.
Going by nationality:
~73% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~18% of Ukranian nationals are bilingual natives.
~9% of Ukranian nationals natively speak Russian.
~4% of Russian nationals natively speak Ukranian.
~14% of Russian nationals are bilingual.
~81% of Russian nationals natively speak Russian.
All these numbers are from 2017.
…
I think it is safe to say that there are in fact many Ukranians in Ukraine, even many Ukranians in Donbas, at least prior to 2022… due to, you know, the ethnic cleansing undertaken by an occupying foreign national army.
My napkin math on those numbers works out to 53% Russian nationals vs 46% Ukranian nationals in Donbas in 2017.
Using a 53% Russian vs 46% Ukranian proportion to justify mass military force against the Ukranian population in Donbas is roughly the same logic that would conclude it is morally correct to invade Los Angeles and deport everyone who isn’t fluent in English, which has similar proportions between English and Spanish.
Ah yes, they are just “confused Russians” who speak a different language because of the ebul West.
In the Donbas? Half of them speak Russian natively, you dunce. About another fifth are natively bilingual.
Since you started it: are you blind?
“There are Ukrainians in Ukraine”
They weren’t talking about the Donbas specifically, they were talking about the entire Ukraine.
No, they are fascist Russians who speak a different language because they hated communism and decided to turn their Russian dialect into a full-blown language.
The Soviets decided to respect the language and cultural differences as long as they denounced their fascism.
Plus “The West” is too vague a term to take seriously.
If you’re from the US, you’re soon going to be familiar with the ‘fascist spin-off nation’.
Yeah, the famous communist hating “Russians” deciding to write in Ukrainian in the 1840s.
Alexander II. banned any publications in Ukrainian. But yeah, totally just fascist Russians lol.
God I’m so fucking tired of idiot liberals who refuse to read history and think their ignorant fucking smarm is the same as knowledge
You are now a liberal if you don’t think every Ukrainian is a fascist.
Dialects have names. Go back further and you’ll notice the language starts out in Kiev, same as Russian, in the same era as the same language.
Again, if you live in the US, you’ll have this historical revisionism fun of fascism too soon.
The only historical revisionist here is you.
Calling another language a “dialect” is really lame if I’m being honest. The Ukrainian and Belarusian languages descended from Rutherian, which split from Russian hundreds of years ago. After centuries of Ukraine being occupied by one foreign power after another the history is all over the place but long story short Ukrainian is as much a dialect of Russian as English is a dialect of Latin.
And as for the Ukrainian identity not being real … if it wasn’t real then Russia wouldn’t be trying to erase it. Ukraine has only been part of Russia for 80 out of the last 800 years. I should not bother arguing with you, I don’t know why I even bother. I’m gonna block you like I do every tankie.
Lol, the differences between Ukrainian and Russian began in the 13th century, when old Ukrainian shifted /g/ to /ɣ/ and then to modern day /ɦ/. By that logic, Germany should swallow the Netherlands because clearly Dutch and German have the same origins and are just dialects. Hell, if you go back to the 11th century, i.e. the Kievan Rus, a bunch of now distinct languages were much closer to each other.
Ukrainian has a lot more German, Polish and Tartar loanwords than Russian. Southwestern Dialects of Ukrainian are closer to Polish than to Russian. Ukrainian has an 38% difference in Vocabulary to Russian, which is roughly the difference between Italian and Spanish. Ukrainian also preserved it’s vocative case, which has disappeared from Russian. It possesses 3 different future tenses, opposed to 2 in Russian. These are two different languages
Soviet promotion of the Ukrainian language was not an “appeasement of fascist russians”, it was a reversal of Tsarist oppression. Just up until the 1930s, when the USSR again made a 180 turn on their language policies throughout its territory.