Country: Has undemocratic two-party system. Elects a nutjob.
You guys: “The people are the problem!!1!1! Just vote for the only other party even if you don’t agree with them on anything!”
Your stance is like a person seeing a riot from afar… deciding to walk towards the riot, the closer they get the more violence they see, the worst it looks, yet this person decides it’s no problem and keeps on walking closer and closer until they get to the heart of the riot, fire everywhere bullets flying around… one group tells the person to duck and get cover but this person decides it’s all the same and maybe those bullets don’t hurt as much as people say so they decide to jump right in the middle of the street.
Finally, when a bullet is heading their way, time slows down and with the bullet inches away from their forehead they say “well, I have no choice but to eat this bullet!, there is no other recourse now, I have no choice in the matter”
You seem to completely misunderstand me. Voting for any of the two main parties, both of whom want the country to be a tyrannical military megaforce that is no stranger to overthrowing democracies, is like accepting the faith of the bullet. Going against any such system is what I am advocating - NOT accepting the bullet. We simply seem to have different views of what the bullet is.
Imagine if Alice is a murderer, and she asks Bob if she should kill two people or five people. Bob says “five”. Now, I will of course be angry at Bob for choosing the obviously worse alternative, but I will in no way claim that he is the cause of the problem. I will not go out and rally support for “Only two people”, I will rally support for “Let’s get rid of Alice”.
No, you lack nuance
The democrats are the people telling to duck for cover, they are not solving the problem, but they are delaying the bullet to the head
You are also not advocating anything against the system. That would require at least some action.
In your example, you are not rallying agaist Alice, you are just refusing to make a choice so the rest will do it for you
The reality is, however you got there, that either 2 or 5 people will die. Your lack of participation ensures 5 people will die
In my example I very clearly am rallying against Alice. In every possible way. I would be fuming, throwing stones, screaming to everyone around me. But I would not accept her proposition to Bob. I would not claim that I “have” to play Alice’s game, because she’s in charge and I have to accept that. I don’t have to accept that. At all.
I would do everything I could to stop her, and almost all of my Anger would be towards her, not towards Bob (I obviously would be angry with him too but he’s after all not a murderer - Alice is).
Keep in mind that in the example, Bob probably believes for some reason that when Alice says two, she means ten.
Yes but in your example, not voting for 2 people to die guaranteed 5 did
You talk like voting for Kamala to prevent Trump means you nowbside with Kamala and the system in every way. Voting for the lesser evil does not stops you at all from rallying against the system and doing everything possible to change it.
You almost get me!
Vote for whoever you want! What I am saying is that your anger towards your peers who happened to indulge in different propaganda and voted for something different is misdirected.
The voters are not the problem.
I do get you, I just do not think letting MAGAs off the hook is accurate, fair or wise for the future… Same way I can understand someone stealing food out of hunger but wouldn’t condone them if they steal with violence
I get some people were fooled into this but I’m convinced MAGAs devotion for trump is not coming from “he’ll make the food cheap again” and more from “that’ll show <insert minority group here> who is the boss around here”
Full disclosure, I’m Canadian so these are not my peers although we do have equivalent ones
The people who voted for the guy directly endorsed by nazis and hate groups, who has an agenda drafted by a prominent hate-monger, are indeed the problem.
Yes, the other choice was a genocide apologist who ALSO sucks corporate dick, but has the decency to throw the average populous a bone now and again and doesn’t fuck up (as many) foreign trade deals and alliances.
Yes, the SOLUTION is to change our election system. But the PROBLEM is fascism, and a shit ton of people voted for more fascism.
Paste of part of my answer from another reply:
Imagine if Alice is a murderer, and she asks Bob if she should kill two people or five people. Bob says “five”. Now, I will of course be angry at Bob for choosing the obviously worse alternative, but I will in no way claim that he is the cause of the problem. I will not go out and rally support for “Only two people”, I will rally support for “Let’s get rid of Alice”.
Same scenario
You CAN’T stop Alice. You just can’t. You don’t have the man power or the legal means.
So your choices are, 2 people or 5 people. If you choose to do nothing, 5 people die, if you swallow the moral superiority, only 2 people die.
Which are you choosing?
In this scenario, I’m not the one choosing, Bob is. And when Bob says “five”, i will be angry, but it will be nothing in comparison with my Anger towards Alice who now can kill five people instead of the two she has been killing on a regular basis before. She’s the one presenting the alternatives, Bob isn’t. She’s the one performing the murders, Bob isn’t. She’s the one that deserves my anger.
In a similar fashion I am not angry with anyone saying “two” either, beacuse “they could’ve said none yadayada”. I am, almost exclusively, angry with Alice.
But herp my derp, Trump claimed he knew nothing of it right before the election.
Meh. This meme is straight up lifted from /pol/, and people there usually go “I voted for this EXACTLY” when news break about how foreigners are abducted from streets and Vance is preparing for an ideological war with Europe.
“Moderates” and old geezer Republicans fell for his lies (again), big surprise. You won’t find them here. The people who made this meme (originally about Israel by the way) only lament how Trump has still not publicly executed Obama and Pelosi.
I mean he’s a convinced felon. I do t get why anyone would any need to read anything else
convicts can reform and become better people.
that said, he has never shown the abilities of remorse, regret, empathy, integrity, or public servitude.
don’t judge a man on what he does, because outward appearances are what they want you to see.
judge him on things he doesn’t do.
he doesn’t tell the truth, he doesn’t help those in need, he doesn’t stop corruption, he doesn’t protect the constitution, he doesn’t protect America.
if you have family that supports him, ask them why he doesn’t do these things. then ask them if they believe these are qualities that every American should strive to emulate.
we need to start treating them like they treat us. lie, cheat, and steal from them. their kindness only deserves to be returned in full.
Given that most felons are people convicted of drug crimes and targeted because of their race, I’d say that many if not most don’t even require reform. I’d probably rather spend time with most felons than most CEOs.
We should forgive drug “use” crimes, but not drug “distribution” crimes. Those people destroy families and communities.
You’re correct but, I like to use both what they do and don’t do 🤷♂️
Wait- aren’t those the same thing in a way? 🤔
they are but they aren’t. for example.
two people stand in front of you.
person A tells half truths.
person B tells half lies.
which will you trust more?
technically both are doing the same amount of lying but person B is actively lying to you by including false information while person A is not telling you the whole truth by omitting it.
I think the “half truths” make it a less apt comparison but I think using that riddle is a really good way to think about it!
I’m sure the millions and millions of conservatives who use Lemmy are going to read this and really rethink their positions.
I’m not convinced most conservatives can read.
The situation with literacy in the USA does more to reveal exactly where and what we are far better than any other arguments about our wealth and society. We have a really big fucking problem here.
21% of adults in this country are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. This is mind-melting for the “richest nation on Earth.” We have nearly a quarter of our population who know how read words as necessary to survive but cannot string together text to form coherent narratives or even pictures in their heads. They can text with emojis and monosyllables but are deeply insecure about not being able to comprehend longer paragraphs and as a result rage against notions of logic and reason and fact-checking. This is what functional illiteracy means and we’ve all encountered it, and this is where much of our science-denial and irrational beliefs are coming from.
https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/post/literacy-statistics-2024-2025-where-we-are-now
they can; they just don’t.
Is that better… or worse?
i think it’s on par with liberals reading and refusing to learn from it.
Or they do, but it’s more harmful than anything because their reading comprehension is bad and they’re a magical thinking type human. So their take away is going to be outright wrong and they’re proud to be. Your truth has no value compared to how they feel, and they presuppose they’re correct and on equal footing as you despite having nothing to back up their claims.
The amount of times I’ve had people like this link to a source when badgered for one, and the link argues against their position is enough to cause dismay lol.
I was gonna say not here on lemmy, maybe facebook, instagram and now Reddit is your targeted audience, but we understand the sentiment due to the fact that you will get censored and permanently banned/shadow banned.
As someone who has had over seven 12+ year-old accounts permanently banned and shadowbanned by reddit for dubious reasons or no reason at all, yeah they don’t want humans engaging there, they want their bot-army to simulate a human community but then can be adjusted with a dial to change the narrative to fit whatever the oligarchs want to push.
Tbt I just deactivate my account yesterday. I had an older account that I deactivated during 2020 madness. So I popped in a year back and this permanently banning people for “hate speech” or whatever that goes against the narrative is absolutely insane! It’s basically 1984 or Fahrenheit451.
Do you not realize EVERY helpful message is important, and often shared across all platforms, and can be good talking points with Conservative friends?
Honestly, I don’t think it’s that important or helpful.
If you have conservative friends and feel the desire to try to engage and debate with them, you would be served a lot better by making an actual effort, understanding their positions and giving them all the rope they need. From there, addressing their specific worries and concerns and asking a lot of questions about why they have the concerns and fears they have… and it’s all fears, all the way down. They don’t care about facts, they have strong emotions that they can’t regulate and their brains latch onto any story to explain their feelings. Engage with the feelings and you can change them.
I have changed more hearts and minds than I can remember doing this, it’s not easy but you can change these simple people if you have the patience and energy. Human beings as a group are like locusts, a scourge upon the earth, a fluid that moves to the lowest places. But as individuals? Individual people are largely easy to influence and change, especially conservatives who only hold their positions because of fear of something.
Not saying that it’s not enjoyable and effective to make fun of the chuds with memes, but let’s all be honest that these memes and jokes are here for us to laugh over and feel catharsis from. If we all actually wanted a better world we would be marching in-mass on washington, arms locked with conservatives whom we have talked to and appealed to their emotions enough that they realized that they can be a part of a better group with a better identity. These people are dumber than dirt, you will get further with them with pity than you will with scorn. I know most people aren’t equipped for this, and I was because I was a self-defense teacher, a public speaker and used to debate right-wing people daily. If you’re anxious and/or non-social, don’t get yourself stressed even trying this until you get more experience.
while i don’t ardently agree with all your rhetoric it makes me feel such a sense of solace to see some of these ideas expressed in the wild.
it’s absolutely confounding how even seemingly rational people begin to emotionally seethe when presented with the fact that shitposting and generally bullying people isn’t activism. seems to be a very human thing.
i think a big part of the issue generally is that people think of their intelligence as some sort of absolute and continuous character trait rather than a discrete aspect of your personality; i.e, the idea someone is a “stupid” or “intelligent” person is of itself, a stupid idea lol. sometimes you’re the biggest brain in the room, sometimes you’re an idiot.
i appreciate your focus on the emotional aspect of it because that is certainly the more pertinent part. imo all humans average around the same intellectual capability, sans extreme outliers. it’s more about how people choose to use what is available to them than an actual lacking of mental capabilities. these people are just as rational as anyone else, it just happens that the vast landscape of knowledge itself is full of many pangs and holes that lead to nowhere; they seem stupid because there exists a seemingly logical perspective that causes them to infinitesimally and continually spin around these holes, like a coin in a make-a-wish donation thing. not sure if i’m conveying my rationale very well but i have found that the stuff in the cracks between ideas like this is often where the calculus of the universe hides in life.
What about the idiots who chose to stay home and not vote at all. They may not have voted for it, but they weren’t voting against it either, and ambivalence in the face of fascism is tacit support.
245 millions could’ve voted, 90 millions didnt vote, 77 millions voted for trump.
68% of people either didn’t care about fascism or wanted it.
Dear americans, wtf happened. Where were you.
They were programmed through the magic of Designer Outrage™ that unless there is zero genocide happening in Palestine¹, they and everyone else should abstain from voting.
¹ Ukraine was not mentioned because they couldn’t give a shit about the atrocities committed elsewhere as long as they could disrupt the election in America.
That was a very small percentage of voters. Most Americans didn’t care about Palestine and just believed Trump’s promises to fix the economy.
They are every bit as responsible as Trump voters.
only the people who voted for a candidate are responsible for electing that candidate.
you don’t know that the nonvoters aren’t doing something, possibly something even more effective than voting. at least you seem to be acknowledging that they’re likely good people, anyway.
They should at least give us a sign, that they are doing something, by now, I mean, would appreciate that, hope is needed now, more than ever, not?
given the vitriol I’ve seen here, I don’t know why they would want to talk to Democrats at all
those damn democrats, yelling about how tmurp’s going to destroy the country, then telling everyone who voted for them they voted for a guy who’s destroying the country. Damn their eyes, don’t they see that our symbolic gesture made us feel like we were above it, all the way until inauguration day?
I and many others have tried to explain this to you people so many times that I don’t have the patience for it anymore, so I’m not going to take the bait.
But you’re wrong.
saying doesn’t make it true.
Cool! And denying it doesn’t make it not true.
it’s tautological that votes for a candidate are what elect the candidate.
Denying it doesn’t make it untrue.
Don’t worry, you can take the path of the president you didn’t vote for, yet helped elect and deny responsibility for your own actions. Like at work when they ask you if you’d rather work all weekend without pay or with pay, and you don’t want to work the weekend at all so you just let everyone else decide for you. It may not be the best move, but it’s the best move you can bring yourself to commit to.
I and many others have tried to explain this
And you all fail every time because you’re just wrong
Tell me, the millions of people who didn’t vote in California, who did they “vote” for by being silent, given the fact the electoral votes of that state went Dem, as everyone knew would happen?
If non-voters are equally as responsible as voters (a stupid notion to begin with but let’s roll) then you have to take into account where those voters were or you’re obviously just looking to blame people
If you saw someone about to get raped on your sidewalk, and you just went inside without defending them or calling 911, don’t you realized you helped FACILITATE the rape? Not voting is facilitating the other votes to matter more.
so by not voting, they made the Democrats votes worth more, too.
Correct, but you can make the “better side” votes count more than the “worse side” votes by participating. Sitting on your couch and not absolutely includes you in fault of the worse side winning, just like the rape scenario you didn’t comment on.
I am not responsible for the bad behavior of others.
As a citizen, hopefully of good conscience and morals, you ARE responsible for NOT doing good when you can. We all are, no matter how many downvotes you collect by arguing against this common sense fact.
no, you’re just responsible for not standing against the worse side, or can you still not tell which side is worse?
“A nazi walks into a bar, and is welcomed at a table by his nine friends. How many Nazis are at the table?” Anyone who sides with fascists, even tentatively or for differing reasons, is themselves still a fascist.
The German Nazis didn’t gain power purely from support of other nazis; they gained power largely from various other parties, business leaders, and wealthy elite, who thought the Nazis would be a useful tool they could use and control to their own ends. The “why” of their support is far less important than the fact of the support itself, and the fact those people were responsible for helping the Nazis commit their crimes.
TBH I’m okay with folks admitting they were lied to. Just help us fix this now.
They were so happy they got to screw over everyone they disagreed with. They considered themselves apart, separate, better, than those they disagreed with. They were the Real America™, the rest of us weren’t part of that. They completely overlooked the fact that, for now at least, we are all still Americans, living in the same country, under the same economy, and the same rules. So they suffer the consequences of their hubris and myopic exceptionalism.
Trumpliterally spouting hate, absurd deportation rhetoric, and insane tariffs while on the campaign.
I didn’t know he would do that!
It wasn’t supposed to ruin my life just the other Average Americanpeople!Republicans are the stupidest racists on the planet, they can’t even recognize when they’re about to get robbed after being told they’re going to get robbed by the robber.
Seeing a Hispanic Virginia citizen that voted for trump get arrested by ICE without is the full circle stupidity that I’ve attributed to uncle Toms and log cabinors in the past. You voted so ICE would roll up on people and just grab them off the street because you wanted to be a pick me. Well they picked you up dumbass.
It’s the same shit I see when “moderates” get all surprise Pikachu faced when the “fiscal conservatives” they wanted, piss on them with trickle down economics.
The people who voted for Trump are only angry that they are being hurt. Even if they read Project 2025, they’d assume they’d be exempt and that it’d only hurt the right people.
There is no reason to engage in smug gloating to shame them into repenting or trying to gently reason with them. You shouldn’t even be talking to them. You should seek to undermine them at every level possible. They need to be kneecapped.
It’s not so black and white. Hear me out: I’m strong against the MAGAs and not impressed with the reps either but I’ve been noticing something interesting happening:
I think there’s a difference between people who voted republican (conservatives) who legitimately believed a lie or just saw what they wanted to see(single issue voters) and MAGA who knew it was a lie and deeply corrupt.
You can see more refined polarizing on the level of what is happening right now on the judiciary branch. It is Republican judges that are holding Trump at bay in the crazy executive orders and illegal and constitutional crisis at the moment.
These judges were Republicans appointed by Bush.
And it’s the MAGAs that are screaming “DEM JUDGES” without first checking the flags on their trojan horse before doing so. Which is really just outing themselves to the republican voting base. I think the republicans are realizing they were a shill. and yes, i am with you that they shouldn’t be all “leopards ate my face” about it and so much of that is that they were complacent while the MAGAs were making open insults to minorities right in front of them.
That said, I think icing them out is not useful. I’m liking how the Dems are stepping up in the ruby red states and flipping seats. They are not icing them out and instead, using the strength of vote. Cuz yeah: republicans do vote. They just need to be led. at this point it’s to be lead away from their own slaughter and detriment and lessening the impact of damage that this caused(for everyone). Cuz like it or not, their votes do change the tide along with the Dems who vote.
There’s also those who whine but refuse to vote over casual excuses that hopefully this is a wakeup call for. I still hate them more deeply than anyone else for this happening. Well maybe on par with how much I hate MAGATs who spew pure toxicity at anyone who gets in their way of blindly “hurting libs” to everyone’s detriment. Cuz sitting by and expecting everyone to save their asses while they doomglare about everything and take up space is passing their self burdening as someone else’s problem.
Always discuss topics with unlike-minded people. Every one persuaded even a little is a win. Discussing only with like-minded people is an echo chamber.
I do discuss and argue with unlike minded people. I just do not do so with MAGA people.
Not because I think MAGA are hopeless, there might be a very very small portion of them that is swayable back to sanity via discussion. I refuse to talk to them and advocate more people do the same because I think doing so legitimately does more harm than good on average. For every MAGA you convert to moderation you further legitimize the beliefs in 99 other MAGA by engaging with them in good faith and even put your own safety at risk on multiple levels.
Admittedly, I also legitimately really fucking hate them. I’d be lying if there wasn’t a void in me that couldn’t be filled with MAGA people suffering or even dying at this point. The antipathy I feel is extraordinarily and irrationally intense.
And the protest-non-voters who voted for this!
explicitly, they did not.
arguably, they didn’t not not
this syntax is too hard for me to hold in my head
America has become a Nazi bar. You are all responsible.
No one read it. There were plenty of more obvious warnings.
here’s another useful one
It was never a paradox.
You just need to acknowledge that there is a limit to how tolerant the world can be. Maybe it is at 100% but there is a limit.
Then you just need to show that tolerance towards e.g. Nazism result in less tolerance than being intolerant to it.
Lol. The Paradox of Tolerance is on par with the Libertarian Non-aggression Principle. Purely academic, purely subjective and, ironically, a moral imposition.
the paradox of tolerance is […] Purely academic
Yes? That’s kinda the point of a thought experiment ? Do you think the trolley problem is less than “purely academic”? Or that Schrodinger actually put a cat in a box?
There are many people, like OP, that see things like the paradox of tolerance as some nouveau morality. It presents itself under the guise of being peaceful and tolerant when it is really a moral subjectivists justification for violence. It is dishonest and so are it’s proponents.
